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Subject: Re: May 13 SG14 monthly call agenda
From: Patrice Roy (patricer_at_[hidden])
Date: 2020-05-13 19:40:32


Thanks! (Patrice in yet another meeting tonight...)

Le mer. 13 mai 2020 à 15:41, Michael Wong via SG14 <sg14_at_[hidden]>
a écrit :

>
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 2:00 PM Michael Wong <fraggamuffin_at_[hidden]>
> wrote:
>
>> Fixed UTC
>>
>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:59 PM Michael Wong <fraggamuffin_at_[hidden]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Updated agenda:
>>>
>>> Topic: SG14 Low Latency Monthly. Hi all, I have turned on high security
>>> for
>>> this call in light of recent events.
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Michael Wong is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
>>>
>>> Topic: SG14 monthly Apr 2020-Oct 2020
>>> Time: Apr 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>
>>> Time: May 13, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>
>>> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>
>>> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>
>>> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>
>>> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>
>>> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>
>>> Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:
>>> https://iso.zoom.us/j/819108882?pwd=L0pPZm5QRWlTYXdJditvU1JLdjFYUT09
>>> Password: 013549
>>>
>>> Or iPhone one-tap :
>>> US: +13462487799,,819108882# or +14086380968,,819108882#
>>> Or Telephone:
>>> Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current
>>> location):
>>> US: +1 346 248 7799 or +1 408 638 0968 or +1 646 876 9923 or +1
>>> 669 900 6833 or +1 253 215 8782 or +1 301 715 8592 or +1 312 626 6799
>>> or 877 853 5247 (Toll Free)
>>> Meeting ID: 819 108 882
>>> Password: 013549
>>> International numbers available: https://iso.zoom.us/u/abhaIjFKLZ
>>>
>>> Or Skype for Business (Lync):
>>> https://iso.zoom.us/skype/819108882
>>>
>>> Agenda:
>>>
>>> 1. Opening and introductions
>>>
>>> 1.1 Roll call of participants
>>>
>> Adam getchell, Guy Davidson, Ben Craig, Ben Saks, Charles Bay, COnor
> Horman, Henry Miller, Inbal Levi, John McFarlane, Malte Kiessling, Paul
> Bendien, Matthew Butler, Rene iviera, Ronan Keryell, Ronen Friedman, Sophia
> Poirer, Billy Baker, Michael Wong, Jens Maurer.
>
> 1.2 Adopt agenda
>>>
>>> 1.3 Approve minutes from previous meeting, and approve publishing
>>> previously approved minutes to ISOCPP.org
>>>
>>> 1.4 Action items from previous meetings
>>>
>>> 2. Main issues (125 min)
>>>
>>> 2.1 General logistics
>>>
>>> Discuss inverted meeting for June
>>>
>>
> 2 AM time ET, UTC 6 AM for Asia/Australia
>
>> Mailing deadline is monthly on 15th
>>>
>>> All meetings going online.
>>>
>> End of August
>
>> 2.2 Paper reviews
>>>
>>> P2057r0
>>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2057r0.pdf>
>>> SG14
>>> SG19 Past, Present and Future status Michael Wong Michael Wong et al.
>>>
>>> D2057R1:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LmBo46a7meB-QH-ZxLbxQMinAaJMvKOjR4gssuaEL18/edit#
>>>
>>> Herb's Assumptions paper:
>>>
>>> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2064r0.pdf
>>>
>>
> EWG in Prague:
> assumptions and assertions are different things
> SG12 safety critical related, high performance and low latency, HPT
> how to ensure correctness in code
> related to contracts
> a core of contracts violation, UB which causes a lot of issues, assert if
> it a bug or not, and it is an implementation matter
> would then like a program to trap through the testing of an expression,
> then optiming based on those assertions
> leaving it as an implementation defined, specified then you can have the
> best of both worlds
> fast vs safe code is not the only way
> teh predicate being tested in a performnat vs safety program is actually
> the same
>
>
> BC: assert cause different things happen vs no assert, nullchecks, if fn
> deref ptr, and is without asserts then there is no warning
> as soon as you had an if looking for null,, but if you have an assert, it
> would not check your fact,
> clang UB sanitizer builtin_unreachable will trap for you
> so static analyzers are missing a trick
>
> RF: assert for safety and performance is different, would liek clear
> definiteion of the attack vectors, distinction between assume to be true
> and never checked, vs those that are checked
>
> do you want a variety? places where you want to trap bugs vs optimize,
> especially contracts trying to please everyone
> JM: I want something very declarative, to say in std a bug has occurred
> here and take a step back, and leave it to implementer to do trap,
> terminate or exception,
>
> RF: multiple compilers environment can be handled that way
> JM: could that be likely/unlikely?
> want to trap on these things
>
> IL: using assume when you have more information then the compiler, having
> this in the standard as a compiler extension
> can do now with impl specific, cant advertise assert as a contract
> violation, makes it hard for compiler to optimize, makes it hard for reader
> to know what they can and cannot do with that function, benefit of contract
> is put the check on the outside of the function
>
> compiler option or standardize? go for simple solution in contracts
>
> invite Herb onto the call
> feedback on contracts
>
>
> 2.2.1 any other proposal for reviews?
>>>
>>> Discuss future direction of detreministic C++ exception group :
>>>
>>> Low-cost Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems
>>> <
>>> https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/portal/files/78829292/low_cost_deterministic_C_exceptions_for_embedded_systems.pdf>
>>>
>>> Low-cost
>>> Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems James Renwick James
>>> Renwick et al.
>>>
>>> 2.3 Domain-specific discussions
>>>
>>> 2.3.1 SIG chairs
>>>
>>
>
> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Games: Guy
>
> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Embedded: Ben
> Craig
>
> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Fiinance: Jens,
> Stephan
>
> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Security: Mathew
> Butler
>
> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada): Games: Rene
>
>> - Embedded Programming chairs: Ben Craig, Wouter van Ooijen and Odin
>>> Holmes, John McFarlane
>>> <
>>>
>>> http://wiki.edg.com/bin/edit/Wg21belfast/McFarlane?topicparent=Wg21belfast.SG14CPPCON2019-09-17;nowysiwyg=1>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Financial/Trading chairs: Stephan TJ, Carl Cooke, Neal Horlock,
>>> Mateusz Pusz, Clay Trychta,
>>> - Games chairs: Rene Riviera, Guy Davidson and Paul Hampson
>>>
>>
> apprehension, templates,compilation sensitive
>
>> - Linear Algebra chairs: Bob Steagall, Mark Hoemmen, Guy Davidson
>>>
>>> 2.4 Other Papers and proposals
>>>
>>> 2.5 Future F2F meetings:
>>>
>>> 2.6 future C++ Standard meetings:
>>> https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings
>>>
>>> - 2020-11: (New York, tentative)
>>> - 2021-02-22 to 27: Kona, HI, USA
>>>
>>> 3. Any other business
>>> Reflector
>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>> As well as look through papers marked "SG14" in recent standards
>>> committee
>>> paper mailings:
>>> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/
>>> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/
>>>
>>> Code and proposal Staging area
>>> https://github.com/WG21-SG14/SG14
>>> 4. Review
>>>
>>> 4.1 Review and approve resolutions and issues [e.g., changes to SG's
>>> working draft]
>>>
>>> 4.2 Review action items (5 min)
>>>
>>> 5. Closing process
>>>
>>> 5.1 Establish next agenda
>>>
>>> 5.2 Future meeting
>>>
>>> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>
>>> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>
>>> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>
>>> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>
>>> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:51 PM Michael Wong <fraggamuffin_at_[hidden]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm interested. Thanks John, we are light on agenda this month so I am
>>>> adding this to the discussion. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:46 PM John McFarlane <john_at_[hidden]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It's a little late -- both for this meeting and -- because it came out
>>>>> two mailings ago but is anyone interested in a brief discussion of Herb's
>>>>> P2064R0
>>>>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2064r0.pdf> Assumptions?
>>>>> More generally, does anyone on SG14 think that contracts are a topic of
>>>>> interest for our domains?
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 18:17, Michael Wong via SG14 <
>>>>> sg14_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Good point. I will in future. This should be 1800 UTC. Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 12:54 PM Guy Cpp via SG14 <
>>>>>> sg14_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Small nit: would it be possible to list times in UTC rather than
>>>>>>> locally adjusted times? I have a calendar appointment that says 18:00 BST
>>>>>>> but I'm pretty sure it's 19:00 BST, ET+5. UTC would clear this all up (I
>>>>>>> assume it's an old recurring calendar appointment).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> See you at... 19:00? 18:00 UTC?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> G
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 14:55, Michael Wong via SG14 <
>>>>>>> sg14_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Topic: SG14 Low Latency Monthly. Hi all, I have turned on high
>>>>>>>> security for
>>>>>>>> this call in light of recent events.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Michael Wong is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Topic: SG14 monthly Apr 2020-Oct 2020
>>>>>>>> Time: Apr 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: May 13, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:
>>>>>>>> https://iso.zoom.us/j/819108882?pwd=L0pPZm5QRWlTYXdJditvU1JLdjFYUT09
>>>>>>>> Password: 013549
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or iPhone one-tap :
>>>>>>>> US: +13462487799,,819108882# or +14086380968,,819108882#
>>>>>>>> Or Telephone:
>>>>>>>> Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current
>>>>>>>> location):
>>>>>>>> US: +1 346 248 7799 or +1 408 638 0968 or +1 646 876 9923
>>>>>>>> or +1
>>>>>>>> 669 900 6833 or +1 253 215 8782 or +1 301 715 8592 or +1 312 626
>>>>>>>> 6799
>>>>>>>> or 877 853 5247 (Toll Free)
>>>>>>>> Meeting ID: 819 108 882
>>>>>>>> Password: 013549
>>>>>>>> International numbers available:
>>>>>>>> https://iso.zoom.us/u/abhaIjFKLZ
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or Skype for Business (Lync):
>>>>>>>> https://iso.zoom.us/skype/819108882
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Agenda:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. Opening and introductions
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1.1 Roll call of participants
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1.2 Adopt agenda
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1.3 Approve minutes from previous meeting, and approve publishing
>>>>>>>> previously approved minutes to ISOCPP.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1.4 Action items from previous meetings
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. Main issues (125 min)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2.1 General logistics
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Discuss inverted meeting for June
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mailing deadline is monthly on 15th
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All meetings going online.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2.2 Paper reviews
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> P2057r0
>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2057r0.pdf>
>>>>>>>> SG14
>>>>>>>> SG19 Past, Present and Future status Michael Wong Michael Wong et
>>>>>>>> al.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2.2.1 any other proposal for reviews?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Discuss future direction of detreministic C++ exception group :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Low-cost Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems
>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>> https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/portal/files/78829292/low_cost_deterministic_C_exceptions_for_embedded_systems.pdf>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Low-cost
>>>>>>>> Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems James Renwick
>>>>>>>> James
>>>>>>>> Renwick et al.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2.3 Domain-specific discussions
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2.3.1 SIG chairs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Embedded Programming chairs: Ben Craig, Wouter van Ooijen and
>>>>>>>> Odin
>>>>>>>> Holmes, John McFarlane
>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://wiki.edg.com/bin/edit/Wg21belfast/McFarlane?topicparent=Wg21belfast.SG14CPPCON2019-09-17;nowysiwyg=1>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Financial/Trading chairs: Stephan TJ, Carl Cooke, Neal
>>>>>>>> Horlock,
>>>>>>>> Mateusz Pusz, Clay Trychta,
>>>>>>>> - Games chairs: Rene Riviera, Guy Davidson and Paul Hampson
>>>>>>>> - Linear Algebra chairs: Bob Steagall, Mark Hoemmen, Guy
>>>>>>>> Davidson
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2.4 Other Papers and proposals
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2.5 Future F2F meetings:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2.6 future C++ Standard meetings:
>>>>>>>> https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - 2020-11: (New York, tentative)
>>>>>>>> - 2021-02-22 to 27: Kona, HI, USA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3. Any other business
>>>>>>>> Reflector
>>>>>>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>>>>>>> As well as look through papers marked "SG14" in recent standards
>>>>>>>> committee
>>>>>>>> paper mailings:
>>>>>>>> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/
>>>>>>>> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Code and proposal Staging area
>>>>>>>> https://github.com/WG21-SG14/SG14
>>>>>>>> 4. Review
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4.1 Review and approve resolutions and issues [e.g., changes to
>>>>>>>> SG's
>>>>>>>> working draft]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4.2 Review action items (5 min)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5. Closing process
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5.1 Establish next agenda
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5.2 Future meeting
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> SG14 mailing list
>>>>>>>> SG14_at_[hidden]
>>>>>>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> SG14 mailing list
>>>>>>> SG14_at_[hidden]
>>>>>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> SG14 mailing list
>>>>>> SG14_at_[hidden]
>>>>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
> SG14 mailing list
> SG14_at_[hidden]
> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>



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