On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 2:00 PM Michael Wong <fraggamuffin_at_[hidden]> wrote:

> Fixed UTC
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:59 PM Michael Wong <fraggamuffin_at_[hidden]>
> wrote:
>
>> Updated agenda:
>>
>> Topic: SG14 Low Latency Monthly. Hi all, I have turned on high security
>> for
>> this call in light of recent events.
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Michael Wong is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
>>
>> Topic: SG14 monthly Apr 2020-Oct 2020
>> Time: Apr 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>
>> Time: May 13, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>
>> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>
>> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>
>> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>
>> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>
>> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>
>> Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:
>> https://iso.zoom.us/j/819108882?pwd=L0pPZm5QRWlTYXdJditvU1JLdjFYUT09
>> Password: 013549
>>
>> Or iPhone one-tap :
>> US: +13462487799,,819108882# or +14086380968,,819108882#
>> Or Telephone:
>> Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current
>> location):
>> US: +1 346 248 7799 or +1 408 638 0968 or +1 646 876 9923 or +1
>> 669 900 6833 or +1 253 215 8782 or +1 301 715 8592 or +1 312 626 6799
>> or 877 853 5247 (Toll Free)
>> Meeting ID: 819 108 882
>> Password: 013549
>> International numbers available: https://iso.zoom.us/u/abhaIjFKLZ
>>
>> Or Skype for Business (Lync):
>> https://iso.zoom.us/skype/819108882
>>
>> Agenda:
>>
>> 1. Opening and introductions
>>
>> 1.1 Roll call of participants
>>
> Adam getchell, Guy Davidson, Ben Craig, Ben Saks, Charles Bay, COnor
Horman, Henry Miller, Inbal Levi, John McFarlane, Malte Kiessling, Paul
Bendien, Matthew Butler, Rene iviera, Ronan Keryell, Ronen Friedman, Sophia
Poirer, Billy Baker, Michael Wong, Jens Maurer.

1.2 Adopt agenda
>>
>> 1.3 Approve minutes from previous meeting, and approve publishing
>> previously approved minutes to ISOCPP.org
>>
>> 1.4 Action items from previous meetings
>>
>> 2. Main issues (125 min)
>>
>> 2.1 General logistics
>>
>> Discuss inverted meeting for June
>>
>
2 AM time ET, UTC 6 AM for Asia/Australia

> Mailing deadline is monthly on 15th
>>
>> All meetings going online.
>>
> End of August

> 2.2 Paper reviews
>>
>> P2057r0
>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2057r0.pdf>
>> SG14
>> SG19 Past, Present and Future status Michael Wong Michael Wong et al.
>>
>> D2057R1:
>>
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LmBo46a7meB-QH-ZxLbxQMinAaJMvKOjR4gssuaEL18/edit#
>>
>> Herb's Assumptions paper:
>>
>> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2064r0.pdf
>>
>
EWG in Prague:
assumptions and assertions are different things
SG12 safety critical related, high performance and low latency, HPT
how to ensure correctness in code
related to contracts
a core of contracts violation, UB which causes a lot of issues, assert if
it a bug or not, and it is an implementation matter
would then like a program to trap through the testing of an expression,
then optiming based on those assertions
leaving it as an implementation defined, specified then you can have the
best of both worlds
fast vs safe code is not the only way
teh predicate being tested in a performnat vs safety program is actually
the same


BC: assert cause different things happen vs no assert, nullchecks, if fn
deref ptr, and is without asserts then there is no warning
as soon as you had an if looking for null,, but if you have an assert, it
would not check your fact,
clang UB sanitizer builtin_unreachable will trap for you
so static analyzers are missing a trick

RF: assert for safety and performance is different, would liek clear
definiteion of the attack vectors, distinction between assume to be true
and never checked, vs those that are checked

do you want a variety? places where you want to trap bugs vs optimize,
especially contracts trying to please everyone
JM: I want something very declarative, to say in std a bug has occurred
here and take a step back, and leave it to implementer to do trap,
terminate or exception,

RF: multiple compilers environment can be handled that way
JM: could that be likely/unlikely?
want to trap on these things

IL: using assume when you have more information then the compiler, having
this in the standard as a compiler extension
can do now with impl specific, cant advertise assert as a contract
violation, makes it hard for compiler to optimize, makes it hard for reader
to know what they can and cannot do with that function, benefit of contract
is put the check on the outside of the function

compiler option or standardize? go for simple solution in contracts

invite Herb onto the call
feedback on contracts


2.2.1 any other proposal for reviews?
>>
>> Discuss future direction of detreministic C++ exception group :
>>
>> Low-cost Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems
>> <
>> https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/portal/files/78829292/low_cost_deterministic_C_exceptions_for_embedded_systems.pdf>
>>
>> Low-cost
>> Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems James Renwick James
>> Renwick et al.
>>
>> 2.3 Domain-specific discussions
>>
>> 2.3.1 SIG chairs
>>
>

Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Games: Guy

Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Embedded: Ben
Craig

Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Fiinance: Jens,
Stephan

Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Security: Mathew
Butler

Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada): Games: Rene

> - Embedded Programming chairs: Ben Craig, Wouter van Ooijen and Odin
>> Holmes, John McFarlane
>> <
>>
>> http://wiki.edg.com/bin/edit/Wg21belfast/McFarlane?topicparent=Wg21belfast.SG14CPPCON2019-09-17;nowysiwyg=1>
>>
>>
>> - Financial/Trading chairs: Stephan TJ, Carl Cooke, Neal Horlock,
>> Mateusz Pusz, Clay Trychta,
>> - Games chairs: Rene Riviera, Guy Davidson and Paul Hampson
>>
>
apprehension, templates,compilation sensitive

> - Linear Algebra chairs: Bob Steagall, Mark Hoemmen, Guy Davidson
>>
>> 2.4 Other Papers and proposals
>>
>> 2.5 Future F2F meetings:
>>
>> 2.6 future C++ Standard meetings:
>> https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings
>>
>> - 2020-11: (New York, tentative)
>> - 2021-02-22 to 27: Kona, HI, USA
>>
>> 3. Any other business
>> Reflector
>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>> As well as look through papers marked "SG14" in recent standards
>> committee
>> paper mailings:
>> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/
>> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/
>>
>> Code and proposal Staging area
>> https://github.com/WG21-SG14/SG14
>> 4. Review
>>
>> 4.1 Review and approve resolutions and issues [e.g., changes to SG's
>> working draft]
>>
>> 4.2 Review action items (5 min)
>>
>> 5. Closing process
>>
>> 5.1 Establish next agenda
>>
>> 5.2 Future meeting
>>
>> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>
>> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>
>> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>
>> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>
>> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>
>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:51 PM Michael Wong <fraggamuffin_at_[hidden]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm interested. Thanks John, we are light on agenda this month so I am
>>> adding this to the discussion. Thanks.
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:46 PM John McFarlane <john_at_[hidden]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's a little late -- both for this meeting and -- because it came out
>>>> two mailings ago but is anyone interested in a brief discussion of Herb's
>>>> P2064R0
>>>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2064r0.pdf> Assumptions?
>>>> More generally, does anyone on SG14 think that contracts are a topic of
>>>> interest for our domains?
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 18:17, Michael Wong via SG14 <
>>>> sg14_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Good point. I will in future. This should be 1800 UTC. Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 12:54 PM Guy Cpp via SG14 <
>>>>> sg14_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Small nit: would it be possible to list times in UTC rather than
>>>>>> locally adjusted times? I have a calendar appointment that says 18:00 BST
>>>>>> but I'm pretty sure it's 19:00 BST, ET+5. UTC would clear this all up (I
>>>>>> assume it's an old recurring calendar appointment).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See you at... 19:00? 18:00 UTC?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> G
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 14:55, Michael Wong via SG14 <
>>>>>> sg14_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Topic: SG14 Low Latency Monthly. Hi all, I have turned on high
>>>>>>> security for
>>>>>>> this call in light of recent events.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michael Wong is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Topic: SG14 monthly Apr 2020-Oct 2020
>>>>>>> Time: Apr 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Time: May 13, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:
>>>>>>> https://iso.zoom.us/j/819108882?pwd=L0pPZm5QRWlTYXdJditvU1JLdjFYUT09
>>>>>>> Password: 013549
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or iPhone one-tap :
>>>>>>> US: +13462487799,,819108882# or +14086380968,,819108882#
>>>>>>> Or Telephone:
>>>>>>> Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current
>>>>>>> location):
>>>>>>> US: +1 346 248 7799 or +1 408 638 0968 or +1 646 876 9923 or
>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>> 669 900 6833 or +1 253 215 8782 or +1 301 715 8592 or +1 312 626
>>>>>>> 6799
>>>>>>> or 877 853 5247 (Toll Free)
>>>>>>> Meeting ID: 819 108 882
>>>>>>> Password: 013549
>>>>>>> International numbers available:
>>>>>>> https://iso.zoom.us/u/abhaIjFKLZ
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or Skype for Business (Lync):
>>>>>>> https://iso.zoom.us/skype/819108882
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Agenda:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Opening and introductions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1.1 Roll call of participants
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1.2 Adopt agenda
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1.3 Approve minutes from previous meeting, and approve publishing
>>>>>>> previously approved minutes to ISOCPP.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1.4 Action items from previous meetings
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. Main issues (125 min)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2.1 General logistics
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Discuss inverted meeting for June
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mailing deadline is monthly on 15th
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All meetings going online.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2.2 Paper reviews
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> P2057r0
>>>>>>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2057r0.pdf>
>>>>>>> SG14
>>>>>>> SG19 Past, Present and Future status Michael Wong Michael Wong et
>>>>>>> al.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2.2.1 any other proposal for reviews?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Discuss future direction of detreministic C++ exception group :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Low-cost Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>> https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/portal/files/78829292/low_cost_deterministic_C_exceptions_for_embedded_systems.pdf>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Low-cost
>>>>>>> Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems James Renwick
>>>>>>> James
>>>>>>> Renwick et al.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2.3 Domain-specific discussions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2.3.1 SIG chairs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Embedded Programming chairs: Ben Craig, Wouter van Ooijen and
>>>>>>> Odin
>>>>>>> Holmes, John McFarlane
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://wiki.edg.com/bin/edit/Wg21belfast/McFarlane?topicparent=Wg21belfast.SG14CPPCON2019-09-17;nowysiwyg=1>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Financial/Trading chairs: Stephan TJ, Carl Cooke, Neal Horlock,
>>>>>>> Mateusz Pusz, Clay Trychta,
>>>>>>> - Games chairs: Rene Riviera, Guy Davidson and Paul Hampson
>>>>>>> - Linear Algebra chairs: Bob Steagall, Mark Hoemmen, Guy Davidson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2.4 Other Papers and proposals
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2.5 Future F2F meetings:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2.6 future C++ Standard meetings:
>>>>>>> https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - 2020-11: (New York, tentative)
>>>>>>> - 2021-02-22 to 27: Kona, HI, USA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3. Any other business
>>>>>>> Reflector
>>>>>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>>>>>> As well as look through papers marked "SG14" in recent standards
>>>>>>> committee
>>>>>>> paper mailings:
>>>>>>> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/
>>>>>>> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Code and proposal Staging area
>>>>>>> https://github.com/WG21-SG14/SG14
>>>>>>> 4. Review
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4.1 Review and approve resolutions and issues [e.g., changes to SG's
>>>>>>> working draft]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4.2 Review action items (5 min)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5. Closing process
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5.1 Establish next agenda
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5.2 Future meeting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> SG14 mailing list
>>>>>>> SG14_at_[hidden]
>>>>>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> SG14 mailing list
>>>>>> SG14_at_[hidden]
>>>>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> SG14 mailing list
>>>>> SG14_at_[hidden]
>>>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>>>>
>>>>