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Subject: Re: May 13 SG14 monthly call agenda
From: Paul M. Bendixen (paulbendixen_at_[hidden])
Date: 2020-05-13 14:58:57


Den ons. 13. maj 2020 kl. 21.41 skrev Michael Wong via SG14
<sg14_at_[hidden]>:
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 2:00 PM Michael Wong <fraggamuffin_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>
>> Fixed UTC
>>
>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:59 PM Michael Wong <fraggamuffin_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Updated agenda:
>>>
>>> Topic: SG14 Low Latency Monthly. Hi all, I have turned on high security for
>>> this call in light of recent events.
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Michael Wong is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
>>>
>>> Topic: SG14 monthly Apr 2020-Oct 2020
>>> Time: Apr 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>
>>> Time: May 13, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>
>>> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>
>>> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>
>>> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>
>>> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>
>>> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>
>>> Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:
>>> https://iso.zoom.us/j/819108882?pwd=L0pPZm5QRWlTYXdJditvU1JLdjFYUT09
>>> Password: 013549
>>>
>>> Or iPhone one-tap :
>>> US: +13462487799,,819108882# or +14086380968,,819108882#
>>> Or Telephone:
>>> Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current location):
>>> US: +1 346 248 7799 or +1 408 638 0968 or +1 646 876 9923 or +1
>>> 669 900 6833 or +1 253 215 8782 or +1 301 715 8592 or +1 312 626 6799
>>> or 877 853 5247 (Toll Free)
>>> Meeting ID: 819 108 882
>>> Password: 013549
>>> International numbers available: https://iso.zoom.us/u/abhaIjFKLZ
>>>
>>> Or Skype for Business (Lync):
>>> https://iso.zoom.us/skype/819108882
>>>
>>> Agenda:
>>>
>>> 1. Opening and introductions
>>>
>>> 1.1 Roll call of participants
>
> Adam getchell, Guy Davidson, Ben Craig, Ben Saks, Charles Bay, COnor Horman, Henry Miller, Inbal Levi, John McFarlane, Malte Kiessling, Paul Bendien, Matthew Butler, Rene iviera, Ronan Keryell, Ronen Friedman, Sophia Poirer, Billy Baker, Michael Wong, Jens Maurer.
>
>>> 1.2 Adopt agenda
>>>
>>> 1.3 Approve minutes from previous meeting, and approve publishing
>>> previously approved minutes to ISOCPP.org
>>>
>>> 1.4 Action items from previous meetings
>>>
>>> 2. Main issues (125 min)
>>>
>>> 2.1 General logistics
>>>
>>> Discuss inverted meeting for June
>
>
> 2 AM time ET, UTC 6 AM for Asia/Australia
>>>
>>> Mailing deadline is monthly on 15th
>>>
>>> All meetings going online.
>
> End of August
>>>
>>> 2.2 Paper reviews
>>>
>>> P2057r0
>>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2057r0.pdf> SG14
>>> SG19 Past, Present and Future status Michael Wong Michael Wong et al.
>>>

There was a question on chat as to where to find the implementation
for the p0829 paper (with some updates)
The link to the gcc fork is:
https://gitlab.com/avr-libstdcxx/gcc/-/tree/p0829-10-release
This is the updated one and should be merged at some point.
The group (https://gitlab.com/avr-libstdcxx/ ) is dedicated to the
project and both the conan and the docker projects are located there.

>>> D2057R1:
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LmBo46a7meB-QH-ZxLbxQMinAaJMvKOjR4gssuaEL18/edit#
>>>
>>> Herb's Assumptions paper:
>>>
>>> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2064r0.pdf
>
>
> EWG in Prague:
> assumptions and assertions are different things
> SG12 safety critical related, high performance and low latency, HPT
> how to ensure correctness in code
> related to contracts
> a core of contracts violation, UB which causes a lot of issues, assert if it a bug or not, and it is an implementation matter
> would then like a program to trap through the testing of an expression, then optiming based on those assertions
> leaving it as an implementation defined, specified then you can have the best of both worlds
> fast vs safe code is not the only way
> teh predicate being tested in a performnat vs safety program is actually the same
>
>
> BC: assert cause different things happen vs no assert, nullchecks, if fn deref ptr, and is without asserts then there is no warning
> as soon as you had an if looking for null,, but if you have an assert, it would not check your fact,
> clang UB sanitizer builtin_unreachable will trap for you
> so static analyzers are missing a trick
>
> RF: assert for safety and performance is different, would liek clear definiteion of the attack vectors, distinction between assume to be true and never checked, vs those that are checked
>
> do you want a variety? places where you want to trap bugs vs optimize, especially contracts trying to please everyone
> JM: I want something very declarative, to say in std a bug has occurred here and take a step back, and leave it to implementer to do trap, terminate or exception,
>
> RF: multiple compilers environment can be handled that way
> JM: could that be likely/unlikely?
> want to trap on these things
>
> IL: using assume when you have more information then the compiler, having this in the standard as a compiler extension
> can do now with impl specific, cant advertise assert as a contract violation, makes it hard for compiler to optimize, makes it hard for reader to know what they can and cannot do with that function, benefit of contract is put the check on the outside of the function
>
> compiler option or standardize? go for simple solution in contracts
>
> invite Herb onto the call
> feedback on contracts
>
>
>>> 2.2.1 any other proposal for reviews?
>>>
>>> Discuss future direction of detreministic C++ exception group :
>>>
>>> Low-cost Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems
>>> <https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/portal/files/78829292/low_cost_deterministic_C_exceptions_for_embedded_systems.pdf>
>>> Low-cost
>>> Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems James Renwick James
>>> Renwick et al.
>>>
>>> 2.3 Domain-specific discussions
>>>
>>> 2.3.1 SIG chairs
>
>
>
> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Games: Guy
>
> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Embedded: Ben Craig
>
> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Fiinance: Jens, Stephan
>
> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Security: Mathew Butler
>
> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada): Games: Rene

So I guess all these are 1800 UTC as well?
Is there any funny buisness going on with EU/US DST switch in fall as well?

>>>
>>> - Embedded Programming chairs: Ben Craig, Wouter van Ooijen and Odin
>>> Holmes, John McFarlane
>>> <
>>> http://wiki.edg.com/bin/edit/Wg21belfast/McFarlane?topicparent=Wg21belfast.SG14CPPCON2019-09-17;nowysiwyg=1>
>>>
>>> - Financial/Trading chairs: Stephan TJ, Carl Cooke, Neal Horlock,
>>> Mateusz Pusz, Clay Trychta,
>>> - Games chairs: Rene Riviera, Guy Davidson and Paul Hampson
>
>
> apprehension, templates,compilation sensitive
>>>
>>> - Linear Algebra chairs: Bob Steagall, Mark Hoemmen, Guy Davidson
>>>
>>> 2.4 Other Papers and proposals
>>>
>>> 2.5 Future F2F meetings:
>>>
>>> 2.6 future C++ Standard meetings:
>>> https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings
>>>
>>> - 2020-11: (New York, tentative)
>>> - 2021-02-22 to 27: Kona, HI, USA
>>>
>>> 3. Any other business
>>> Reflector
>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>> As well as look through papers marked "SG14" in recent standards committee
>>> paper mailings:
>>> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/
>>> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/
>>>
>>> Code and proposal Staging area
>>> https://github.com/WG21-SG14/SG14
>>> 4. Review
>>>
>>> 4.1 Review and approve resolutions and issues [e.g., changes to SG's
>>> working draft]
>>>
>>> 4.2 Review action items (5 min)
>>>
>>> 5. Closing process
>>>
>>> 5.1 Establish next agenda
>>>
>>> 5.2 Future meeting
>>>
>>> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>
>>> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>
>>> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>
>>> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>
>>> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:51 PM Michael Wong <fraggamuffin_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm interested. Thanks John, we are light on agenda this month so I am adding this to the discussion. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:46 PM John McFarlane <john_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a little late -- both for this meeting and -- because it came out two mailings ago but is anyone interested in a brief discussion of Herb's P2064R0 Assumptions? More generally, does anyone on SG14 think that contracts are a topic of interest for our domains?
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 18:17, Michael Wong via SG14 <sg14_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good point. I will in future. This should be 1800 UTC. Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 12:54 PM Guy Cpp via SG14 <sg14_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Small nit: would it be possible to list times in UTC rather than locally adjusted times? I have a calendar appointment that says 18:00 BST but I'm pretty sure it's 19:00 BST, ET+5. UTC would clear this all up (I assume it's an old recurring calendar appointment).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> See you at... 19:00? 18:00 UTC?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> G
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 14:55, Michael Wong via SG14 <sg14_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Topic: SG14 Low Latency Monthly. Hi all, I have turned on high security for
>>>>>>>> this call in light of recent events.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Michael Wong is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Topic: SG14 monthly Apr 2020-Oct 2020
>>>>>>>> Time: Apr 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: May 13, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:
>>>>>>>> https://iso.zoom.us/j/819108882?pwd=L0pPZm5QRWlTYXdJditvU1JLdjFYUT09
>>>>>>>> Password: 013549
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or iPhone one-tap :
>>>>>>>> US: +13462487799,,819108882# or +14086380968,,819108882#
>>>>>>>> Or Telephone:
>>>>>>>> Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current location):
>>>>>>>> US: +1 346 248 7799 or +1 408 638 0968 or +1 646 876 9923 or +1
>>>>>>>> 669 900 6833 or +1 253 215 8782 or +1 301 715 8592 or +1 312 626 6799
>>>>>>>> or 877 853 5247 (Toll Free)
>>>>>>>> Meeting ID: 819 108 882
>>>>>>>> Password: 013549
>>>>>>>> International numbers available: https://iso.zoom.us/u/abhaIjFKLZ
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or Skype for Business (Lync):
>>>>>>>> https://iso.zoom.us/skype/819108882
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Agenda:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. Opening and introductions
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1.1 Roll call of participants
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1.2 Adopt agenda
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1.3 Approve minutes from previous meeting, and approve publishing
>>>>>>>> previously approved minutes to ISOCPP.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1.4 Action items from previous meetings
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. Main issues (125 min)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2.1 General logistics
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Discuss inverted meeting for June
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mailing deadline is monthly on 15th
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All meetings going online.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2.2 Paper reviews
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> P2057r0
>>>>>>>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2057r0.pdf> SG14
>>>>>>>> SG19 Past, Present and Future status Michael Wong Michael Wong et al.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2.2.1 any other proposal for reviews?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Discuss future direction of detreministic C++ exception group :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Low-cost Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems
>>>>>>>> <https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/portal/files/78829292/low_cost_deterministic_C_exceptions_for_embedded_systems.pdf>
>>>>>>>> Low-cost
>>>>>>>> Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems James Renwick James
>>>>>>>> Renwick et al.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2.3 Domain-specific discussions
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2.3.1 SIG chairs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Embedded Programming chairs: Ben Craig, Wouter van Ooijen and Odin
>>>>>>>> Holmes, John McFarlane
>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>> http://wiki.edg.com/bin/edit/Wg21belfast/McFarlane?topicparent=Wg21belfast.SG14CPPCON2019-09-17;nowysiwyg=1>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Financial/Trading chairs: Stephan TJ, Carl Cooke, Neal Horlock,
>>>>>>>> Mateusz Pusz, Clay Trychta,
>>>>>>>> - Games chairs: Rene Riviera, Guy Davidson and Paul Hampson
>>>>>>>> - Linear Algebra chairs: Bob Steagall, Mark Hoemmen, Guy Davidson
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2.4 Other Papers and proposals
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2.5 Future F2F meetings:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2.6 future C++ Standard meetings:
>>>>>>>> https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - 2020-11: (New York, tentative)
>>>>>>>> - 2021-02-22 to 27: Kona, HI, USA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3. Any other business
>>>>>>>> Reflector
>>>>>>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>>>>>>> As well as look through papers marked "SG14" in recent standards committee
>>>>>>>> paper mailings:
>>>>>>>> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/
>>>>>>>> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Code and proposal Staging area
>>>>>>>> https://github.com/WG21-SG14/SG14
>>>>>>>> 4. Review
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4.1 Review and approve resolutions and issues [e.g., changes to SG's
>>>>>>>> working draft]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4.2 Review action items (5 min)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5. Closing process
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5.1 Establish next agenda
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5.2 Future meeting
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> SG14 mailing list
>>>>>>>> SG14_at_[hidden]
>>>>>>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> SG14 mailing list
>>>>>>> SG14_at_[hidden]
>>>>>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> SG14 mailing list
>>>>>> SG14_at_[hidden]
>>>>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>
> _______________________________________________
> SG14 mailing list
> SG14_at_[hidden]
> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14

Best
Paul Bendixen (with an 'x')

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