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Subject: Re: May 13 SG14 monthly call agenda
From: Michael Wong (fraggamuffin_at_[hidden])
Date: 2020-05-14 08:36:21


No worries. Stay safe.

On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:41 PM Patrice Roy <patricer_at_[hidden]> wrote:

> Thanks! (Patrice in yet another meeting tonight...)
>
> Le mer. 13 mai 2020 à 15:41, Michael Wong via SG14 <sg14_at_[hidden]>
> a écrit :
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 2:00 PM Michael Wong <fraggamuffin_at_[hidden]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Fixed UTC
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:59 PM Michael Wong <fraggamuffin_at_[hidden]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Updated agenda:
>>>>
>>>> Topic: SG14 Low Latency Monthly. Hi all, I have turned on high security
>>>> for
>>>> this call in light of recent events.
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Michael Wong is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
>>>>
>>>> Topic: SG14 monthly Apr 2020-Oct 2020
>>>> Time: Apr 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>>
>>>> Time: May 13, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>>
>>>> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>>
>>>> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>>
>>>> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>>
>>>> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>>
>>>> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC
>>>>
>>>> Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:
>>>> https://iso.zoom.us/j/819108882?pwd=L0pPZm5QRWlTYXdJditvU1JLdjFYUT09
>>>> Password: 013549
>>>>
>>>> Or iPhone one-tap :
>>>> US: +13462487799,,819108882# or +14086380968,,819108882#
>>>> Or Telephone:
>>>> Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current
>>>> location):
>>>> US: +1 346 248 7799 or +1 408 638 0968 or +1 646 876 9923 or +1
>>>> 669 900 6833 or +1 253 215 8782 or +1 301 715 8592 or +1 312 626 6799
>>>> or 877 853 5247 (Toll Free)
>>>> Meeting ID: 819 108 882
>>>> Password: 013549
>>>> International numbers available: https://iso.zoom.us/u/abhaIjFKLZ
>>>>
>>>> Or Skype for Business (Lync):
>>>> https://iso.zoom.us/skype/819108882
>>>>
>>>> Agenda:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Opening and introductions
>>>>
>>>> 1.1 Roll call of participants
>>>>
>>> Adam getchell, Guy Davidson, Ben Craig, Ben Saks, Charles Bay, COnor
>> Horman, Henry Miller, Inbal Levi, John McFarlane, Malte Kiessling, Paul
>> Bendien, Matthew Butler, Rene iviera, Ronan Keryell, Ronen Friedman, Sophia
>> Poirer, Billy Baker, Michael Wong, Jens Maurer.
>>
>> 1.2 Adopt agenda
>>>>
>>>> 1.3 Approve minutes from previous meeting, and approve publishing
>>>> previously approved minutes to ISOCPP.org
>>>>
>>>> 1.4 Action items from previous meetings
>>>>
>>>> 2. Main issues (125 min)
>>>>
>>>> 2.1 General logistics
>>>>
>>>> Discuss inverted meeting for June
>>>>
>>>
>> 2 AM time ET, UTC 6 AM for Asia/Australia
>>
>>> Mailing deadline is monthly on 15th
>>>>
>>>> All meetings going online.
>>>>
>>> End of August
>>
>>> 2.2 Paper reviews
>>>>
>>>> P2057r0
>>>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2057r0.pdf>
>>>> SG14
>>>> SG19 Past, Present and Future status Michael Wong Michael Wong et al.
>>>>
>>>> D2057R1:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LmBo46a7meB-QH-ZxLbxQMinAaJMvKOjR4gssuaEL18/edit#
>>>>
>>>> Herb's Assumptions paper:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2064r0.pdf
>>>>
>>>
>> EWG in Prague:
>> assumptions and assertions are different things
>> SG12 safety critical related, high performance and low latency, HPT
>> how to ensure correctness in code
>> related to contracts
>> a core of contracts violation, UB which causes a lot of issues, assert if
>> it a bug or not, and it is an implementation matter
>> would then like a program to trap through the testing of an expression,
>> then optiming based on those assertions
>> leaving it as an implementation defined, specified then you can have the
>> best of both worlds
>> fast vs safe code is not the only way
>> teh predicate being tested in a performnat vs safety program is actually
>> the same
>>
>>
>> BC: assert cause different things happen vs no assert, nullchecks, if fn
>> deref ptr, and is without asserts then there is no warning
>> as soon as you had an if looking for null,, but if you have an assert, it
>> would not check your fact,
>> clang UB sanitizer builtin_unreachable will trap for you
>> so static analyzers are missing a trick
>>
>> RF: assert for safety and performance is different, would liek clear
>> definiteion of the attack vectors, distinction between assume to be true
>> and never checked, vs those that are checked
>>
>> do you want a variety? places where you want to trap bugs vs optimize,
>> especially contracts trying to please everyone
>> JM: I want something very declarative, to say in std a bug has occurred
>> here and take a step back, and leave it to implementer to do trap,
>> terminate or exception,
>>
>> RF: multiple compilers environment can be handled that way
>> JM: could that be likely/unlikely?
>> want to trap on these things
>>
>> IL: using assume when you have more information then the compiler, having
>> this in the standard as a compiler extension
>> can do now with impl specific, cant advertise assert as a contract
>> violation, makes it hard for compiler to optimize, makes it hard for reader
>> to know what they can and cannot do with that function, benefit of contract
>> is put the check on the outside of the function
>>
>> compiler option or standardize? go for simple solution in contracts
>>
>> invite Herb onto the call
>> feedback on contracts
>>
>>
>> 2.2.1 any other proposal for reviews?
>>>>
>>>> Discuss future direction of detreministic C++ exception group :
>>>>
>>>> Low-cost Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems
>>>> <
>>>> https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/portal/files/78829292/low_cost_deterministic_C_exceptions_for_embedded_systems.pdf>
>>>>
>>>> Low-cost
>>>> Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems James Renwick James
>>>> Renwick et al.
>>>>
>>>> 2.3 Domain-specific discussions
>>>>
>>>> 2.3.1 SIG chairs
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Games: Guy
>>
>> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Embedded: Ben
>> Craig
>>
>> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Fiinance:
>> Jens, Stephan
>>
>> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Security:
>> Mathew Butler
>>
>> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada): Games: Rene
>>
>>> - Embedded Programming chairs: Ben Craig, Wouter van Ooijen and Odin
>>>> Holmes, John McFarlane
>>>> <
>>>>
>>>> http://wiki.edg.com/bin/edit/Wg21belfast/McFarlane?topicparent=Wg21belfast.SG14CPPCON2019-09-17;nowysiwyg=1>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - Financial/Trading chairs: Stephan TJ, Carl Cooke, Neal Horlock,
>>>> Mateusz Pusz, Clay Trychta,
>>>> - Games chairs: Rene Riviera, Guy Davidson and Paul Hampson
>>>>
>>>
>> apprehension, templates,compilation sensitive
>>
>>> - Linear Algebra chairs: Bob Steagall, Mark Hoemmen, Guy Davidson
>>>>
>>>> 2.4 Other Papers and proposals
>>>>
>>>> 2.5 Future F2F meetings:
>>>>
>>>> 2.6 future C++ Standard meetings:
>>>> https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings
>>>>
>>>> - 2020-11: (New York, tentative)
>>>> - 2021-02-22 to 27: Kona, HI, USA
>>>>
>>>> 3. Any other business
>>>> Reflector
>>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>>> As well as look through papers marked "SG14" in recent standards
>>>> committee
>>>> paper mailings:
>>>> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/
>>>> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/
>>>>
>>>> Code and proposal Staging area
>>>> https://github.com/WG21-SG14/SG14
>>>> 4. Review
>>>>
>>>> 4.1 Review and approve resolutions and issues [e.g., changes to SG's
>>>> working draft]
>>>>
>>>> 4.2 Review action items (5 min)
>>>>
>>>> 5. Closing process
>>>>
>>>> 5.1 Establish next agenda
>>>>
>>>> 5.2 Future meeting
>>>>
>>>> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>
>>>> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>
>>>> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>
>>>> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>
>>>> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:51 PM Michael Wong <fraggamuffin_at_[hidden]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm interested. Thanks John, we are light on agenda this month so I
>>>>> am adding this to the discussion. Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:46 PM John McFarlane <john_at_[hidden]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's a little late -- both for this meeting and -- because it came
>>>>>> out two mailings ago but is anyone interested in a brief discussion of
>>>>>> Herb's P2064R0
>>>>>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2064r0.pdf> Assumptions?
>>>>>> More generally, does anyone on SG14 think that contracts are a topic of
>>>>>> interest for our domains?
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 18:17, Michael Wong via SG14 <
>>>>>> sg14_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good point. I will in future. This should be 1800 UTC. Thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 12:54 PM Guy Cpp via SG14 <
>>>>>>> sg14_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Small nit: would it be possible to list times in UTC rather than
>>>>>>>> locally adjusted times? I have a calendar appointment that says 18:00 BST
>>>>>>>> but I'm pretty sure it's 19:00 BST, ET+5. UTC would clear this all up (I
>>>>>>>> assume it's an old recurring calendar appointment).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> See you at... 19:00? 18:00 UTC?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> G
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 14:55, Michael Wong via SG14 <
>>>>>>>> sg14_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Topic: SG14 Low Latency Monthly. Hi all, I have turned on high
>>>>>>>>> security for
>>>>>>>>> this call in light of recent events.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Michael Wong is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Topic: SG14 monthly Apr 2020-Oct 2020
>>>>>>>>> Time: Apr 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Time: May 13, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://iso.zoom.us/j/819108882?pwd=L0pPZm5QRWlTYXdJditvU1JLdjFYUT09
>>>>>>>>> Password: 013549
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Or iPhone one-tap :
>>>>>>>>> US: +13462487799,,819108882# or +14086380968,,819108882#
>>>>>>>>> Or Telephone:
>>>>>>>>> Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current
>>>>>>>>> location):
>>>>>>>>> US: +1 346 248 7799 or +1 408 638 0968 or +1 646 876 9923
>>>>>>>>> or +1
>>>>>>>>> 669 900 6833 or +1 253 215 8782 or +1 301 715 8592 or +1 312 626
>>>>>>>>> 6799
>>>>>>>>> or 877 853 5247 (Toll Free)
>>>>>>>>> Meeting ID: 819 108 882
>>>>>>>>> Password: 013549
>>>>>>>>> International numbers available:
>>>>>>>>> https://iso.zoom.us/u/abhaIjFKLZ
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Or Skype for Business (Lync):
>>>>>>>>> https://iso.zoom.us/skype/819108882
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Agenda:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. Opening and introductions
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1.1 Roll call of participants
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1.2 Adopt agenda
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1.3 Approve minutes from previous meeting, and approve publishing
>>>>>>>>> previously approved minutes to ISOCPP.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1.4 Action items from previous meetings
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. Main issues (125 min)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2.1 General logistics
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Discuss inverted meeting for June
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mailing deadline is monthly on 15th
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All meetings going online.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2.2 Paper reviews
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> P2057r0
>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2057r0.pdf>
>>>>>>>>> SG14
>>>>>>>>> SG19 Past, Present and Future status Michael Wong Michael Wong et
>>>>>>>>> al.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2.2.1 any other proposal for reviews?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Discuss future direction of detreministic C++ exception group :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Low-cost Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems
>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>> https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/portal/files/78829292/low_cost_deterministic_C_exceptions_for_embedded_systems.pdf>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Low-cost
>>>>>>>>> Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems James Renwick
>>>>>>>>> James
>>>>>>>>> Renwick et al.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2.3 Domain-specific discussions
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2.3.1 SIG chairs
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - Embedded Programming chairs: Ben Craig, Wouter van Ooijen and
>>>>>>>>> Odin
>>>>>>>>> Holmes, John McFarlane
>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://wiki.edg.com/bin/edit/Wg21belfast/McFarlane?topicparent=Wg21belfast.SG14CPPCON2019-09-17;nowysiwyg=1>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - Financial/Trading chairs: Stephan TJ, Carl Cooke, Neal
>>>>>>>>> Horlock,
>>>>>>>>> Mateusz Pusz, Clay Trychta,
>>>>>>>>> - Games chairs: Rene Riviera, Guy Davidson and Paul Hampson
>>>>>>>>> - Linear Algebra chairs: Bob Steagall, Mark Hoemmen, Guy
>>>>>>>>> Davidson
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2.4 Other Papers and proposals
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2.5 Future F2F meetings:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2.6 future C++ Standard meetings:
>>>>>>>>> https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - 2020-11: (New York, tentative)
>>>>>>>>> - 2021-02-22 to 27: Kona, HI, USA
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3. Any other business
>>>>>>>>> Reflector
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>>>>>>>> As well as look through papers marked "SG14" in recent standards
>>>>>>>>> committee
>>>>>>>>> paper mailings:
>>>>>>>>> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/
>>>>>>>>> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Code and proposal Staging area
>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/WG21-SG14/SG14
>>>>>>>>> 4. Review
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 4.1 Review and approve resolutions and issues [e.g., changes to
>>>>>>>>> SG's
>>>>>>>>> working draft]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 4.2 Review action items (5 min)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 5. Closing process
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 5.1 Establish next agenda
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 5.2 Future meeting
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> SG14 mailing list
>>>>>>>>> SG14_at_[hidden]
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> SG14 mailing list
>>>>>>>> SG14_at_[hidden]
>>>>>>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> SG14 mailing list
>>>>>>> SG14_at_[hidden]
>>>>>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> SG14 mailing list
>> SG14_at_[hidden]
>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
>>
>



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