On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 2:00 PM Michael Wong <fraggamuffin@gmail.com> wrote:

Fixed UTC

On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:59 PM Michael Wong <fraggamuffin@gmail.com> wrote:

Updated agenda:

Topic: SG14 Low Latency Monthly. Hi all, I have turned on high security for
this call in light of recent events.

Hi,

Michael Wong is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.

Topic: SG14 monthly Apr 2020-Oct 2020
Time: Apr 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)  18:00 UTC

Time: May 13, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC

Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)  18:00 UTC

Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC

Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC

Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC

Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 18:00 UTC

Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:
https://iso.zoom.us/j/819108882?pwd=L0pPZm5QRWlTYXdJditvU1JLdjFYUT09
    Password: 013549

Or iPhone one-tap :
    US: +13462487799,,819108882# or +14086380968,,819108882#
Or Telephone:
    Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current location):
        US: +1 346 248 7799 or +1 408 638 0968 or +1 646 876 9923 or +1
669 900 6833 or +1 253 215 8782 or +1 301 715 8592 or +1 312 626 6799
 or 877 853 5247 (Toll Free)
    Meeting ID: 819 108 882
    Password: 013549
    International numbers available: https://iso.zoom.us/u/abhaIjFKLZ

Or Skype for Business (Lync):
    https://iso.zoom.us/skype/819108882

Agenda:

1. Opening and introductions

1.1 Roll call of participants

Adam getchell, Guy Davidson, Ben Craig, Ben Saks, Charles Bay, COnor Horman, Henry Miller,  Inbal Levi, John McFarlane, Malte Kiessling, Paul Bendien, Matthew Butler, Rene iviera, Ronan Keryell, Ronen Friedman, Sophia Poirer, Billy Baker, Michael Wong, Jens Maurer.

1.2 Adopt agenda

1.3 Approve minutes from previous meeting, and approve publishing
 previously approved minutes to ISOCPP.org

1.4 Action items from previous meetings

2. Main issues (125 min)

2.1 General logistics

Discuss inverted meeting for June

2 AM time ET, UTC 6 AM for Asia/Australia

Mailing deadline is monthly on 15th

All meetings going online.

End of August

2.2 Paper reviews

P2057r0
<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2057r0.pdf> SG14
SG19 Past, Present and Future status Michael Wong Michael Wong et al.

D2057R1:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LmBo46a7meB-QH-ZxLbxQMinAaJMvKOjR4gssuaEL18/edit#

Herb's Assumptions paper:

http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2064r0.pdf

EWG in Prague:

assumptions and assertions are different things

SG12 safety critical related, high performance and low latency, HPT

how to ensure correctness in code

related to contracts

a core of contracts violation, UB which causes a lot of issues, assert if it a bug or not, and it is an implementation matter

would then like a program to trap through the testing of an expression, then optiming based on those assertions

leaving it as an implementation defined, specified then you can have the best of both worlds

fast vs safe code is not the only way

teh predicate being tested  in a performnat vs safety program is actually the same

BC: assert cause different things happen vs no assert, nullchecks, if fn deref ptr, and is without asserts then there is no warning

as soon as you had an if looking for null,, but if you have an assert, it would not check your fact,

clang UB sanitizer builtin_unreachable will trap for you

so static analyzers are missing a trick

RF: assert for safety and performance is different, would liek clear definiteion of the attack vectors, distinction between assume to be true and never checked, vs those that are checked

do you want a variety? places where you want to trap bugs vs optimize, especially contracts trying to please everyone

JM: I want something very declarative, to say in std a bug has occurred here and take a step back, and leave it to implementer to do trap, terminate or exception,

RF: multiple compilers environment can be handled that way

JM: could that be likely/unlikely?

want to trap on these things

IL: using assume when you have more information then the compiler, having this in the standard as a compiler extension

can do now with impl specific, cant advertise assert as a contract violation, makes it hard for compiler to optimize, makes it hard for reader to know what they can and cannot do with that function, benefit of contract is put the check on the outside of the function

compiler option or standardize? go for simple solution in contracts

invite Herb onto the call

feedback on contracts

2.2.1 any other proposal for reviews?

Discuss future direction of detreministic C++ exception group :

Low-cost Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems
<https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/portal/files/78829292/low_cost_deterministic_C_exceptions_for_embedded_systems.pdf>
Low-cost
Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems James Renwick James
Renwick et al.

2.3 Domain-specific discussions

2.3.1 SIG chairs

 

Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Games: Guy

Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Embedded: Ben Craig

Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Fiinance: Jens, Stephan

Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) : Security: Mathew Butler

Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada): Games: Rene

   - Embedded Programming chairs: Ben Craig, Wouter van Ooijen and Odin
   Holmes, John McFarlane
   <
http://wiki.edg.com/bin/edit/Wg21belfast/McFarlane?topicparent=Wg21belfast.SG14CPPCON2019-09-17;nowysiwyg=1>

   - Financial/Trading chairs: Stephan TJ, Carl Cooke, Neal Horlock,
   Mateusz Pusz, Clay Trychta,
   - Games chairs: Rene Riviera, Guy Davidson and Paul Hampson

apprehension, templates,compilation sensitive

   - Linear Algebra chairs: Bob Steagall, Mark Hoemmen, Guy Davidson

2.4 Other Papers and proposals

2.5 Future F2F meetings:

2.6 future C++ Standard meetings:
https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings

- 2020-11: (New York, tentative)
- 2021-02-22 to 27: Kona, HI, USA

3. Any other business
Reflector
https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
As well as look through papers marked "SG14" in recent standards committee
paper mailings:
http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/
http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/

Code and proposal Staging area
https://github.com/WG21-SG14/SG14
4. Review

4.1 Review and approve resolutions and issues [e.g., changes to SG's
working draft]

4.2 Review action items (5 min)

5. Closing process

5.1 Establish next agenda

5.2 Future meeting

Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:51 PM Michael Wong <fraggamuffin@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm interested.  Thanks John, we are light on agenda this month so I am adding this to the discussion. Thanks.

On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:46 PM John McFarlane <john@mcfarlane.name> wrote:

It's a little late -- both for this meeting and -- because it came out two mailings ago but is anyone interested in a brief discussion of Herb's P2064R0 Assumptions? More generally, does anyone on SG14 think that contracts are a topic of interest for our domains?

John

On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 18:17, Michael Wong via SG14 <sg14@lists.isocpp.org> wrote:

Good point. I will in future. This should be 1800 UTC. Thanks.

On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 12:54 PM Guy Cpp via SG14 <sg14@lists.isocpp.org> wrote:

Small nit: would it be possible to list times in UTC rather than locally adjusted times? I have a calendar appointment that says 18:00 BST but I'm pretty sure it's 19:00 BST, ET+5. UTC would clear this all up (I assume it's an old recurring calendar appointment).

See you at... 19:00? 18:00 UTC?

Cheers,
G

On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 14:55, Michael Wong via SG14 <sg14@lists.isocpp.org> wrote:

Topic: SG14 Low Latency Monthly. Hi all, I have turned on high security for
this call in light of recent events.

Hi,

Michael Wong is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.

Topic: SG14 monthly Apr 2020-Oct 2020
Time: Apr 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

Time: May 13, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:
https://iso.zoom.us/j/819108882?pwd=L0pPZm5QRWlTYXdJditvU1JLdjFYUT09
    Password: 013549

Or iPhone one-tap :
    US: +13462487799,,819108882# or +14086380968,,819108882#
Or Telephone:
    Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current location):
        US: +1 346 248 7799 or +1 408 638 0968 or +1 646 876 9923 or +1
669 900 6833 or +1 253 215 8782 or +1 301 715 8592 or +1 312 626 6799
 or 877 853 5247 (Toll Free)
    Meeting ID: 819 108 882
    Password: 013549
    International numbers available: https://iso.zoom.us/u/abhaIjFKLZ

Or Skype for Business (Lync):
    https://iso.zoom.us/skype/819108882

Agenda:

1. Opening and introductions

1.1 Roll call of participants

1.2 Adopt agenda

1.3 Approve minutes from previous meeting, and approve publishing
 previously approved minutes to ISOCPP.org

1.4 Action items from previous meetings

2. Main issues (125 min)

2.1 General logistics

Discuss inverted meeting for June

Mailing deadline is monthly on 15th

All meetings going online.

2.2 Paper reviews

P2057r0
<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2057r0.pdf> SG14
SG19 Past, Present and Future status Michael Wong Michael Wong et al.

2.2.1 any other proposal for reviews?

Discuss future direction of detreministic C++ exception group :

Low-cost Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems
<https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/portal/files/78829292/low_cost_deterministic_C_exceptions_for_embedded_systems.pdf>
Low-cost
Deterministic C++ Exceptions for Embedded Systems James Renwick James
Renwick et al.

2.3 Domain-specific discussions

2.3.1 SIG chairs

   - Embedded Programming chairs: Ben Craig, Wouter van Ooijen and Odin
   Holmes, John McFarlane
   <
http://wiki.edg.com/bin/edit/Wg21belfast/McFarlane?topicparent=Wg21belfast.SG14CPPCON2019-09-17;nowysiwyg=1>

   - Financial/Trading chairs: Stephan TJ, Carl Cooke, Neal Horlock,
   Mateusz Pusz, Clay Trychta,
   - Games chairs: Rene Riviera, Guy Davidson and Paul Hampson
   - Linear Algebra chairs: Bob Steagall, Mark Hoemmen, Guy Davidson

2.4 Other Papers and proposals

2.5 Future F2F meetings:

2.6 future C++ Standard meetings:
https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings

- 2020-11: (New York, tentative)
- 2021-02-22 to 27: Kona, HI, USA

3. Any other business
Reflector
https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
As well as look through papers marked "SG14" in recent standards committee
paper mailings:
http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/
http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/

Code and proposal Staging area
https://github.com/WG21-SG14/SG14
4. Review

4.1 Review and approve resolutions and issues [e.g., changes to SG's
working draft]

4.2 Review action items (5 min)

5. Closing process

5.1 Establish next agenda

5.2 Future meeting

Time: June 10, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

Time: Jul 8, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

Time: Aug 12, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

Time: Sep 9, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

Time: Oct 14, 2020 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

_______________________________________________
SG14 mailing list
SG14@lists.isocpp.org
https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14

_______________________________________________
SG14 mailing list
SG14@lists.isocpp.org
https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14

_______________________________________________
SG14 mailing list
SG14@lists.isocpp.org
https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14

_______________________________________________
SG14 mailing list
SG14@lists.isocpp.org
https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14