Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 18:46:59 +0000
Nathan - you recount is all correct.
> I know I've mentioned it more than once, but I find it unsettling, given there
> was great opposition to there being a (two way?) mapping between file names and
> module names, that there is a move in the direction of making file names
> 'significant'. ISTM that the desire for bob.$REGULARSUFFIX and
> alice.$MODULESUFFIX is taking us all the way back to the first objection above
> about having two languages.
I am not seeing any movement to make filename suffixes significant in the linguistic interpretation, by the compiler, of the content of source file. Maybe I am not looking right; but I would definitely recommend against such move. There are extra linguistic considerations that might force a toolset (not just a compiler) to require certain suffixes, but those suffixes do not determine the meaning a C++ program -- this is not different from compilers like GCC or MSVC refusing to compile in default mode files ending with ".h" or similar because they generally have other connotations.
For some reasons, the topic of the "right" suffix seems to generate more passion than the topic of what can we do with modules, so maybe we are already doing a lot with modules 😝
-- Gaby
-----Original Message-----
From: Ext <ext-bounces_at_lists.isocpp.org> On Behalf Of Nathan Sidwell via Ext
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2022 11:21 AM
To: sg15_at_[hidden]rg; ext_at_lists.isocpp.org; WG21 Tooling Study Group SG15 <tooling_at_open-std.org>
Cc: Nathan Sidwell <nathan_at_[hidden]>
Subject: Re: [isocpp-ext] [SG15] Can we expect that all C++ source files can have the same suffix?
On 4/13/22 17:10, Nico Josuttis via SG15 wrote:
> I should add that the fact that we need
> module;
> at the beginning of the global module fragment was only introduced to let a file
> identify itself as module file.
> If we would require different suffixes, that would not have been necessary.
>
> But correct me if I am wrong.
I shall correct you :)
Here's the history (as I recall, all persons mentioned are real, and not to be
confused with ficticious characters)
* prior to me doing things with gcc, there was only 'module FOO;' as a module
declaration at-most once within a TU. MSVC (the only compiler with module
smarts at the time), had a flag to tell it 'this is an interface' vs 'this is an
implementation'.
* I found this unsatisfying, as it meant that there was something outside the
source tokens that told you how to interpret them. In effect we had two languages.
* IIRC, Gaby, Jason (Merrill) and I came up with the 'export module FOO;' vs
'module foo;' distinction. But still this could be anywhere in the source
stream. I was able to implement this functionality to a working system.
* Daveed proposed an early signifier of 'hey, this is gonna be a module', should
the actual module declaration not be first. Hence 'module;' was born. (My
understanding was that this was driven by implementors, as they had difficulty
entering a module-like mode not at start of compilation, and indeed it was a
little tricky to do that. I do not know if this was also a user request.)
* post p1103, the requirement that everything between 'module;' and the module
decl come from #include came to be.
Hope that helps.
I know I've mentioned it more than once, but I find it unsettling, given there
was great opposition to there being a (two way?) mapping between file names and
module names, that there is a move in the direction of making file names
'significant'. ISTM that the desire for bob.$REGULARSUFFIX and
alice.$MODULESUFFIX is taking us all the way back to the first objection above
about having two languages.
nathan
>
>
>
> Am 13. April 2022 22:58:13 MESZ schrieb Nicolai Josuttis via Ext
> <ext_at_[hidden]>:
>
> What I teach about modules is compelling. Programmers like and want to use it.
> However, they ask how they should organize module files in practice.
>
> So far I cannot recommend a specific suffix (and I might never be able to do
> that).
> However there is one important question that IMO the standard should answer:
> *Do we **/need /**different suffixes?*
>
> I understand that a suffix discussion is only of practical value.
> But IMO the standard has to give an answer here (which has nothing to do
> with which suffixes are used).
>
> Let me elaborate that in detail:
>
> Not having a standard suffix has interesting consequences.
> So far we have header files and translation units.
> But once we know what a C++ translation unit is, we can just compile them
> all with the same compiler options or commands. Because in practice we have
> different suffixes for header and source files, we can set-up generic rules
> to compile our code.
>
> This works for any suffix, provided you know the way to tell the compiler
> that we have a C++ file here:
> (use /Tp with VC++ and -xc++ with gcc and you are done).
>
> Is this still true with modules?
> That is: Can we expect that identifying a file as C++ file is enough to be
> able to (pre) compile it as C++ file?
>
> Current compilers give different answers (AFAIK):
>
> - *gcc *says the same suffix is possible. There is not special option for
> modules.
> I can still have my own suffixes and use -xc++ though.
>
> - *VC++* currently requires different suffixes or different command-line
> arguments.
> Identifying a file as C++ file is not enough.
> For example
> - This is not enough: /Tp mymod.cppm
> - You need: /interface /Tp mymod.cppm
>
> I wonder whether the behavior of VC++ is standard conforming.
>
> I see no place in the C++ standard saying that there has to be different
> treatment of C++ source files to make them work.
> Or do we require this somewhere?
> We do not require different treatment just because we have templates,
> namespaces, or exceptions used inside.
> Therefore, I would expect that also using modules does not require special
> handling.
> (This is independent from the question whether different suffixes help to
> deal with these files).
>
> If I am right, VC++ is not standard conforming.
>
>
> In any case it would help a lot to clarify:
> Can all C++ source files expect that treating them the same way works fine?
>
> If not, we obviously need different suffixes. But then we should clearly say
> so (without necessarily saying which suffix it is).
>
>
> I hope this questions brings us a bit forward to be able teach the first
> *portable *"hello, modules" example.
>
> Thanks
>
> Nico
>
> --
> ---
> Nicolai M. Josuttis
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.josuttis.de%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cgdr%40microsoft.com%7Cbd5d9b59ad484906820b08da1f0cac6f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637856436548406876%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rGQUFYPVGC6vH5MaGf4q6GG%2BB8fTzeWGtqy%2BSjZ9w30%3D&reserved=0
> +49 (0)531 / 129 88 86
> +49 (0)700 / JOSUTTIS
>
> Books:
> C++:https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcppstd20.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cgdr%40microsoft.com%7Cbd5d9b59ad484906820b08da1f0cac6f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637856436548406876%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3RK5Al6NSQ9aaLx4mj7IAYuvW2IBRAD292Q5A3%2BlZAk%3D&reserved=0,https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcppstd17.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cgdr%40microsoft.com%7Cbd5d9b59ad484906820b08da1f0cac6f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637856436548406876%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=6HM1W8MPFGlu1AeYoBJHI9IeRXS7VmxTw5w8YTn8FD4%3D&reserved=0,https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcppmove.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cgdr%40microsoft.com%7Cbd5d9b59ad484906820b08da1f0cac6f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637856436548406876%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=N%2BKcVW0jDyb9rEFMBB1r69HTdjAP%2BJa4STQPn3vs7Z8%3D&reserved=0,
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>
> --
> Nico Josuttis
> (sent from my mobile phone)
>
> _______________________________________________
> SG15 mailing list
> SG15_at_[hidden]socpp.org
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.isocpp.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fsg15&data=05%7C01%7Cgdr%40microsoft.com%7Cbd5d9b59ad484906820b08da1f0cac6f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637856436548406876%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WuvKKYX%2FnkV6rIOADi4dtNc3IUcjURRipoLglLkOHHw%3D&reserved=0
--
Nathan Sidwell
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> I know I've mentioned it more than once, but I find it unsettling, given there
> was great opposition to there being a (two way?) mapping between file names and
> module names, that there is a move in the direction of making file names
> 'significant'. ISTM that the desire for bob.$REGULARSUFFIX and
> alice.$MODULESUFFIX is taking us all the way back to the first objection above
> about having two languages.
I am not seeing any movement to make filename suffixes significant in the linguistic interpretation, by the compiler, of the content of source file. Maybe I am not looking right; but I would definitely recommend against such move. There are extra linguistic considerations that might force a toolset (not just a compiler) to require certain suffixes, but those suffixes do not determine the meaning a C++ program -- this is not different from compilers like GCC or MSVC refusing to compile in default mode files ending with ".h" or similar because they generally have other connotations.
For some reasons, the topic of the "right" suffix seems to generate more passion than the topic of what can we do with modules, so maybe we are already doing a lot with modules 😝
-- Gaby
-----Original Message-----
From: Ext <ext-bounces_at_lists.isocpp.org> On Behalf Of Nathan Sidwell via Ext
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2022 11:21 AM
To: sg15_at_[hidden]rg; ext_at_lists.isocpp.org; WG21 Tooling Study Group SG15 <tooling_at_open-std.org>
Cc: Nathan Sidwell <nathan_at_[hidden]>
Subject: Re: [isocpp-ext] [SG15] Can we expect that all C++ source files can have the same suffix?
On 4/13/22 17:10, Nico Josuttis via SG15 wrote:
> I should add that the fact that we need
> module;
> at the beginning of the global module fragment was only introduced to let a file
> identify itself as module file.
> If we would require different suffixes, that would not have been necessary.
>
> But correct me if I am wrong.
I shall correct you :)
Here's the history (as I recall, all persons mentioned are real, and not to be
confused with ficticious characters)
* prior to me doing things with gcc, there was only 'module FOO;' as a module
declaration at-most once within a TU. MSVC (the only compiler with module
smarts at the time), had a flag to tell it 'this is an interface' vs 'this is an
implementation'.
* I found this unsatisfying, as it meant that there was something outside the
source tokens that told you how to interpret them. In effect we had two languages.
* IIRC, Gaby, Jason (Merrill) and I came up with the 'export module FOO;' vs
'module foo;' distinction. But still this could be anywhere in the source
stream. I was able to implement this functionality to a working system.
* Daveed proposed an early signifier of 'hey, this is gonna be a module', should
the actual module declaration not be first. Hence 'module;' was born. (My
understanding was that this was driven by implementors, as they had difficulty
entering a module-like mode not at start of compilation, and indeed it was a
little tricky to do that. I do not know if this was also a user request.)
* post p1103, the requirement that everything between 'module;' and the module
decl come from #include came to be.
Hope that helps.
I know I've mentioned it more than once, but I find it unsettling, given there
was great opposition to there being a (two way?) mapping between file names and
module names, that there is a move in the direction of making file names
'significant'. ISTM that the desire for bob.$REGULARSUFFIX and
alice.$MODULESUFFIX is taking us all the way back to the first objection above
about having two languages.
nathan
>
>
>
> Am 13. April 2022 22:58:13 MESZ schrieb Nicolai Josuttis via Ext
> <ext_at_[hidden]>:
>
> What I teach about modules is compelling. Programmers like and want to use it.
> However, they ask how they should organize module files in practice.
>
> So far I cannot recommend a specific suffix (and I might never be able to do
> that).
> However there is one important question that IMO the standard should answer:
> *Do we **/need /**different suffixes?*
>
> I understand that a suffix discussion is only of practical value.
> But IMO the standard has to give an answer here (which has nothing to do
> with which suffixes are used).
>
> Let me elaborate that in detail:
>
> Not having a standard suffix has interesting consequences.
> So far we have header files and translation units.
> But once we know what a C++ translation unit is, we can just compile them
> all with the same compiler options or commands. Because in practice we have
> different suffixes for header and source files, we can set-up generic rules
> to compile our code.
>
> This works for any suffix, provided you know the way to tell the compiler
> that we have a C++ file here:
> (use /Tp with VC++ and -xc++ with gcc and you are done).
>
> Is this still true with modules?
> That is: Can we expect that identifying a file as C++ file is enough to be
> able to (pre) compile it as C++ file?
>
> Current compilers give different answers (AFAIK):
>
> - *gcc *says the same suffix is possible. There is not special option for
> modules.
> I can still have my own suffixes and use -xc++ though.
>
> - *VC++* currently requires different suffixes or different command-line
> arguments.
> Identifying a file as C++ file is not enough.
> For example
> - This is not enough: /Tp mymod.cppm
> - You need: /interface /Tp mymod.cppm
>
> I wonder whether the behavior of VC++ is standard conforming.
>
> I see no place in the C++ standard saying that there has to be different
> treatment of C++ source files to make them work.
> Or do we require this somewhere?
> We do not require different treatment just because we have templates,
> namespaces, or exceptions used inside.
> Therefore, I would expect that also using modules does not require special
> handling.
> (This is independent from the question whether different suffixes help to
> deal with these files).
>
> If I am right, VC++ is not standard conforming.
>
>
> In any case it would help a lot to clarify:
> Can all C++ source files expect that treating them the same way works fine?
>
> If not, we obviously need different suffixes. But then we should clearly say
> so (without necessarily saying which suffix it is).
>
>
> I hope this questions brings us a bit forward to be able teach the first
> *portable *"hello, modules" example.
>
> Thanks
>
> Nico
>
> --
> ---
> Nicolai M. Josuttis
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.josuttis.de%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cgdr%40microsoft.com%7Cbd5d9b59ad484906820b08da1f0cac6f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637856436548406876%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rGQUFYPVGC6vH5MaGf4q6GG%2BB8fTzeWGtqy%2BSjZ9w30%3D&reserved=0
> +49 (0)531 / 129 88 86
> +49 (0)700 / JOSUTTIS
>
> Books:
> C++:https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcppstd20.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cgdr%40microsoft.com%7Cbd5d9b59ad484906820b08da1f0cac6f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637856436548406876%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3RK5Al6NSQ9aaLx4mj7IAYuvW2IBRAD292Q5A3%2BlZAk%3D&reserved=0,https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcppstd17.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cgdr%40microsoft.com%7Cbd5d9b59ad484906820b08da1f0cac6f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637856436548406876%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=6HM1W8MPFGlu1AeYoBJHI9IeRXS7VmxTw5w8YTn8FD4%3D&reserved=0,https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcppmove.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cgdr%40microsoft.com%7Cbd5d9b59ad484906820b08da1f0cac6f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637856436548406876%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=N%2BKcVW0jDyb9rEFMBB1r69HTdjAP%2BJa4STQPn3vs7Z8%3D&reserved=0,
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>
> --
> Nico Josuttis
> (sent from my mobile phone)
>
> _______________________________________________
> SG15 mailing list
> SG15_at_[hidden]socpp.org
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.isocpp.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fsg15&data=05%7C01%7Cgdr%40microsoft.com%7Cbd5d9b59ad484906820b08da1f0cac6f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637856436548406876%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WuvKKYX%2FnkV6rIOADi4dtNc3IUcjURRipoLglLkOHHw%3D&reserved=0
--
Nathan Sidwell
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Received on 2022-04-15 18:47:02