I'm using them as examples of libraries - I expect/understand that they
will include multiple modules in some modular future, as they include
multiple headers today.

On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 9:00 AM Gabriel Dos Reis <gdr_at_[hidden]> wrote:

> If we pick Boost of LLVM as example, are you thinking of them as libraries
> or as modules?
>
> -- Gaby
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* SG15 <sg15-bounces_at_[hidden]> on behalf of David Blaikie
> via SG15 <sg15_at_[hidden]>
> *Sent:* Friday, March 4, 2022 12:52:17 AM
> *To:* Olga Arkhipova <olgaark_at_[hidden]>
> *Cc:* David Blaikie <dblaikie_at_[hidden]>; David Blaikie via SG15 <
> sg15_at_[hidden]>
> *Subject:* Re: [SG15] Meeting on Friday March 4th at 9AM Pacific.
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 10:49 PM Olga Arkhipova <olgaark_at_[hidden]>
> wrote:
>
> >>. Is my understanding correct that MSVC can't consume external modules
> that don't include an MSVC Project file? (is this true for external
> dependencies pre-modules, or is this a new/tighter constraint for consuming
> external libraries?)
>
>
>
> As there is no “well defined” libraries location on Windows, all locations
> for includes, libs, binaries, whatever have to be specified explicitly for
> the build there either by the user or by package managers (via build
> extensions)
>
>
> OK, so if I picked up LLVM or Boost, etc, from an open source build
> without a MSVC project file - I'd probably add some include and library
> paths to my MSVC project?
>
> looks like the boost docs document something like this:
> https://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_65_0/more/getting_started/windows.html
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boost.org%2Fdoc%2Flibs%2F1_65_0%2Fmore%2Fgetting_started%2Fwindows.html&data=04%7C01%7Cgdr%40microsoft.com%7C62bbe26501e146cc179108d9fdbc546c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637819807586512325%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=SfZG3zp%2BVIkAqzk789bIzBeOOW4lvDRSS2jfOyk3bCY%3D&reserved=0>
>
> Looks like it's a total of 3 steps:
> 1) Add an include path
> 2) Add a library path
> 3) Add a library name to link to (oh, this is optional if your linker
> supports auto-linking - I guess the headers embed some metadata into the
> objects, and the linker reads that metadata to determine what to link)
>
>
> MSVC can consume prebuilt modules if somebody specifies the BMI locations
> as build options either in the form of
>
> /reference “ModuleName=”Path/To/Module/BMI”
>
> or the BMI search path.
>
>
> What about not-prebuilt-modules - where there's a static/shared library,
> and some cppm files, no (or not usable-by-this-tool) BMI? How does MSVC
> consume those, when they're external to the MSVC projects?
>
>
> In the last case the expectation is that ifc name would exactly match the
> module and it is not working very well due to build not producing what
> compiler expects there - user intervention is needed to change the default
> ifc name to match the module name.
>
>
>
> In any case is it quite tedious work for the user as all module
> dependencies must be fould by the compiler and this is why we’d like to
> have some additional info provided by the libraries which would allow us to
> get “ModuleName=BMI location” info automatically and to reduce user’s work.
> It would be great if we could use the same mechanism that we use today for
> getting the BMI dependencies, i.e. to be able to find json with additional
> info from the BMI location.
>
>
> Right, though for other folks/use cases, they'd like to be able to go from
> ModuleName to cppm location and build commands (since they might not have a
> usable BMI - different compiler, build configuration,
> tool-that-isn't-a-compiler/doesn't-embed-one, etc).
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Olga
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* David Blaikie <dblaikie_at_[hidden]>
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 3, 2022 20:47
> *To:* David Blaikie via SG15 <sg15_at_[hidden]>
> *Cc:* Olga Arkhipova <olgaark_at_[hidden]>
> *Subject:* Re: [SG15] Meeting on Friday March 4th at 9AM Pacific.
>
>
>
> You don't often get email from dblaikie_at_gmail.com. Learn why this is
> important <http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification>
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 4:34 PM Olga Arkhipova via SG15 <
> sg15_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>
> I think it would be useful to finish the discussion about scenarios and
> assumptions before we go to solutions
>
>
>
> Here is what I believe we’ve got so far
>
>
>
> Suppose we have:
>
>
>
> Library A: contains Module A
>
> Library B: contains Module B which imports Module A
>
> Code C: imports Module B
>
>
>
> The libraries can come in different forms:
>
>
>
> 1. *Binary Libraries *– libraries that contain prebuilt BMIs and
> static lib (as well as at least some sources)
> 2. *Source Libraries* – libraries that don’t contain any binaries,
> most of the popular libraries today. There are two main forms today
>
> These two scenarios don't seem to include what I think is the more common
> scenario that, so far as I understand it, is at the core one being
> discussed in the proposal:
>
> Code that would currently ship as a binary library - headers and
> precompiled (static and/or shared) libraries. I think "most of the popular
> libraries today" ship this way (see LLVM, boost, etc).
>
> The scenario that Bloomberg folks are trying to figure out is what those
> libraries look like/how they ship in a modules world - which means shipping
> module interface source and precompiled static/shared libraries (/maybe/
> some BMIs that cover some compilers and build configurations, but the more
> challenging cases/motivation for the proposal are where those BMIs aren't
> applicable to the consumer's (C's) build) - and probably some kind of build
> instructions for the module interface source. The hope/desire is to
> standardize these build instructions, to some degree. Not for building the
> whole source of library A or B, only the BMIs.
>
>
> 1.
>
> *b.1. Header only libraries * – headers are built as a part of the
> user’s code TUs.
>
> * Note*: This form is not applicable to module interfaces as they are
> different TUs. The module interface source will have to be built explicitly
> (i.e. it has to be b.2).
>
> *b.2. Sources and (some) build instructions - *sources are built on the
> user’s machine with user’s build tools (producing static or dynamic lib)
> which then consumed by the user’s build.
>
> The build is performed either by the package manager or by user’s build
> explicitly. The result and further usage is similar to Binary Libraries.
>
>
>
> *Scenarios and assumptions *
>
>
>
> 1. Main build of C.
>
> 1.1 The build needs to have Module B’s and Module A’s BMIs to be able
> to compile the source that import Module B.
>
> The build needs to
>
> 1.1.1. find BMIs in the (assuming it can read them) using the
> information available to that build system
>
> or
>
> 1.1.2. somehow re-build the BMIs (assuming it cannot read them).
>
>
>
> 1.2. The build also needs to find and link static lib of Library B
> (which contains implementation of Module B), as well as static lib of
> Library A (which contains implementation of Module A).
>
>
>
> 1. Tools outside of the main build (IDE, static analysis, etc.) need
> to compile/parse C.
>
> Assumption: the main build of C succeeds on the same machine.
>
> For that they need to be able to rebuild Module A and Module B (the
> assumption is that they never can read BMIs).
>
> Right - including the case where this "tool" might also be another
> compiler. (eg: someone ships code with GCC BMIs and needs to compile it
> with Clang - or a different build mode that's not BMI compatible (clang's
> BMIs are much more constrained than their ABI - there are different flags
> you can use that would make the BMI not valid to share, but would still be
> usable with some exsiting shared/static library that the module was an
> interface to))
>
>
>
>
>
> *What we’ve agreed on:*
>
>
>
> 1. Any library which contains modules must include module interface
> sources
> 2. If a library contains BMIs, it should also contain information
> (probably in some json form) sufficient to be able to rebuilt them.
>
> Could we remove the "IF a library contains BMIs" from this statement? "A
> shipped library should include some portable-ish* means of defining how to
> build BMIs from its module interface definitions"
>
> * portable-ish in that it might have parts that lets it specify
> compiler-specific flags (maybe general ones - GCC-like or MSVC-like, etc -
> enable or disable certain warnings, or define certain preprocessor
> directives, etc).
>
>
>
>
> 1.
>
>
>
>
>
> I also promised a description of what VS is doing for module’s build,
> please see attached.
>
>
> Thanks! Had a bit of a look. Is my understanding correct that MSVC can't
> consume external modules that don't include an MSVC Project file? (is this
> true for external dependencies pre-modules, or is this a new/tighter
> constraint for consuming external libraries?)
>
>