Bryce,

I’m speaking more from the “naïve user” perspective here. The first time using

import std.vector

Behaves differently than

#include<vector>

We’ve added a decade to the time until many of the users I interact with will try modules again.

To me that equivalence is an extremely strong goal

Best,

David P

From: SG15 <sg15-bounces_at_[hidden]> on behalf of Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash via SG15 <sg15_at_[hidden]>
Reply-To: "sg15_at_[hidden]" <sg15_at_lists.isocpp.org>
Date: Monday, March 9, 2020 at 5:26 AM
To: Evolution Working Group mailing list <ext_at_[hidden]>
Cc: Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash <brycelelbach_at_gmail.com>, Ben Boeckel via Modules <modules_at_[hidden]>, C++ Library Evolution Working Group <lib-ext_at_[hidden]>, ISO C++ Tooling Study Group <sg15_at_[hidden]>, Nathan Sidwell <nathan_at_[hidden]>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [SG15] [isocpp-ext] Modularization of the standard library andABI stability

If I understand correctly, you are suggesting that the reorganized modularized standard library could be ABI incompatible with the standard library you get with #includes.

I have noticed an interesting property of all the "compromise" proposals for ABI evolution; they are all the moral equivalent of std2. I'm not making any judgements on whether that is good or bad.

While I think your idea has merit, I think we should probably make it a design goal that:

import std.vector

and

#include <vector>

give you the same std::vector.

Does anyone disagree with that goal?



On Mon, Mar 9, 2020, 04:20 Nathan Sidwell via Ext <ext_at_[hidden]<mailto:ext_at_[hidden]>> wrote:
On 3/9/20 6:02 AM, Corentin via Ext wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 9 Mar 2020 at 10:45, Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash via Ext
> <ext_at_[hidden]<mailto:ext_at_[hidden]> <mailto:ext_at_[hidden]<mailto:ext_at_[hidden]>>> wrote:
>
> I want a scope on that reorganization.
>
>
> Again, the reorganization scope is limited by our willingness and
> ability to break abi

> At the end of the day everything will still be owned by the global
> module fragment.

You seem to be limiting your willingness to break ABI. You only need to
keep the GM ownership if you're unwilling to break (some subset of) the ABI.

Or, if you're breaking ABI, you don't need to preserve C++<N
compatibility. So you could implement the std headers as wrappers to
imports of named modules. No GM in sight.


>
>
> What problems do we want to solve? Possible answers:
>
> - Finer grained access to things, either in addition to or in place
> of coarse access (for example being able to just get function, not
> all of <functional>)
>
>
> very small modules FOR THE STANDARD LIBRARY provides little benefits
>
> - More logical access to things (tuple is in <tuple>, so clearly
> pair must be in <pair>... oh wait)
>
>
> I think that's more example or too small modules
>
> - Freestanding concerns (separate function from parts of
> <functional> that are complicated to freestandingifyl
>
>
> Having the free standing bits in a module seem useful
> Some precedent in rust. of course non trivial because of partially free
> standing things. I imagine that for the purposes of modules, having
> partially free standing classes considered free standing makes sense. I
> guess some exploration is needed there.
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020, 02:39 Ville Voutilainen
> <ville.voutilainen_at_[hidden]<mailto:ville.voutilainen_at_[hidden]> <mailto:ville.voutilainen_at_[hidden]<mailto:ville.voutilainen_at_[hidden]>>>
> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 9 Mar 2020 at 11:33, Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash
> <brycelelbach_at_[hidden]<mailto:brycelelbach_at_[hidden]> <mailto:brycelelbach_at_[hidden]<mailto:brycelelbach_at_[hidden]>>> wrote:
> >
> > I wrote a paper that in large part was a response to P0581,
> so yes, I've read it a few times.
> >
> > https://wg21.link/P1453
> >
> > It sounded like you were trying to make a point. Can you be
> clearer about what that point was?
>
> P0581 has some bits of rationale for providing named modules,
> not just
> transitioned headers.
> Reorganization seems to be one of them.
>
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--
Nathan Sidwell
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