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[Tooling] March 22 telecon minutes

From: Ben Craig <ben.craig_at_[hidden]>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 01:35:39 +0000
The agenda that was in the telecon will come in a later email, here's the minutes. Note that some people that couldn't make the meeting have been assigned homework. Many thanks to Tom for taking minutes today!

Tom's notes

- Anna Gringauze (AG)
- Ben Boeckel (BB)
- Ben Craig (BC)
- Bruno Cardoso Lopes (BCL)
- Colby Pike (CP)
- Gor Nishanov (GN)
- JF Bastien (JF)
- Mark Zeren (MZ)
- Mathew Woehlke (MW)
- Mathias Stern (MS)
- Michael Spencer (MSp)
- Nathan Sidwell (NS)
- Olga Arkhipova (OA)
- Peter Bindels (PB)
- Rene Rivera (RR)
- Steve Downey (SD)
- Stephen Kelly (SK)
- Tom Honermann (TH)

BC: Introduces agenda; agreement on the outline of the TR; get volunteers; minimal tech talk.
BC: Any objection to the findings as an outline?
JF: Need to base this on code at some point. Would like to see a code base that uses modules and multiple build systems. We can talk all day about theoretical concerns, but need to base work on reality.
BC: As an example, modularize Boost?
JF: Need to focus on applications.
BC: Need to distinguish modularizing a library and consuming a library.
PB: Perhaps try the kitchen sink example from CopperSpice?
TH: JF, do you want real projects or exemplary projects?
JF: Real projects.
SD: Don't think we need really real projects, just exemplary ones. POSIX demonstrates how to do compiles, link; use case oriented.
TH: Agree, and it would be nice to have examples in the TR demonstrating usage.
BC: Bryce has a hello world with modules that could be an example in the TR.
PB: I volunteer to make a hello world example.
BC: Back to the outline, who is working on what? Corentin and PB are working on module mapping?
PB: We have P1484.
MS: I volunteer to help with module mapping.
TH: Which aspect of module mapping are we discussing here?
PB: Mapping to source.
MS: Also want mapping to BMIs.
BC: Sounds like this covers mapping to source, BMI, and indication of header units.
BC: Michael Spencer is working on dependency scanning. So is Ben Boeckel. Can I record them as volunteers to work on this?
MSp: Yes.
JF: Dependency scanning is part of build system implementation. What is the goal of discussing dependency scanning (and other features we're
discussing) as part of the TR?
MS: It is a contract between stakeholders.
TH: Not concerned about implementation details; concerned about ensuring meta data is represented in ways usable by multiple tools, buld systems, etc..
MSp: The best/fastest way to build modules are relevant for implementation.
PB: Perhaps worth discussing trade offs between fast and accurate?
MS: Let's take inaccurate off the table.
BC: Moving on to build performance, can I sign Rene and Mathias up for that?
MS: Yes, questions to address: can BMI and object files be built concurrently? What gets built and how? These are worth researching.
RR: Happy to work on performance related issues and testing. There is a chicken/egg problem of needing working compilers. We can't tackle distributed builds without additional work.
MS: Would like feedback on how reasonable it is to look at performance of current compiler incarnations.
NS: In three years time, performance profile will probably be quite different; focus now is correctness, not speed.
MSp: Clang has some inefficiencies around finding modules now. I think overhead of modules will go down over time. Dependencies will remain.
MS: Wondering about relative performance, scanning vs code gen vs BMI gen, etc... Perhaps a TR2 would be a good focus for performance.
MSp: Some performance sensitive things will change, some things won't.
BC: Looking at code base transition path now. BC volunteers.
TH: Interested in transition path.
SK: Also interested.
SD: Also interested. Will bring a Lacos and Bloomberg informed focus.
BC: Olga, will you sign up for BMI distribution?
OA: Yes. We've had internal discussions about sharing BMIs.
BCL: Volunteers to work on BMI distribution as well.
SD: This overlaps with sharing of object files as well. What is the range of IFNDR when sharing BMIs? If a BMI isn't suitable, how does it get recompiled.
TH: Is MSp interested in volunteering with regard to BMI distribution?
JF: We can volunteer to write a section that says "don't".
BC: I don't think we should have a section that raises questions for all stackeholders. Instead, each area under findings should raise questions and explore them from the standpoint of each stakeholder.
MS: I agree, though not particularly productive to discuss now until we have stuff to put in the doc.
BC: Makes sense.
BC: PB volunteered for hello world, volunteers for distributed build?
MS: I volunteer. Would be nice to have someone from Google due to difference in approaches.
GN: Volunteers Gaby to contribute to hello world examples.
BC: Would like to sign up Gaby for explicit module dependencies as the Microsoft Edge team purportedly used them.
MS: Do we want to encourage explicit module dependencies?
??: No.
TH: Matches existing PCH usage in Microsoft ecosystems.
BC: We should discuss.
OA: For dependency scanning, we are planning to do work to support this, but haven't started yet. Mixed mode dependency scanning and explicit dependencies may happen.
BC: Moving on to header only libraries. Done today to avoid build system pain. Any volunteers?
PB: Catch2 considering moving away from header-only for technical reasons (e.g., build speed).
BC: No volunteers for header-only.
BC: Volunteers for incremental-build? Kind of inherent to builds in general...
MS: I volunteer to writeup something for incremental builds.
BC: On to building BMIs for tooling consumption.
OA: I work on static analysis, so interested in special tools.
Interested in saving information useful for tools in BMIs.
TH: Will contribute to discussion on sharing BMIs across compilers/tools.
BC: No assignments for module naming, module granularity, BMI configuration. Got the rest. Stakeholders to be covered on a per item basis.
TH: Perhaps next meeting we can have everyone vote about their highest priority concerns to be addressed in the TR.

Ben's notes

Possibly interleave findings and guidance?

Need concrete code base / code bases, need multiple concrete build systems
   Tie things to specific examples
      For multiple stakeholders, use cases
      Kitchen Sink CopperSpice example?

Peter Bindels + Gaby: Volunteering for hello world with modules section

Corentin Jabot, Peter Bindels, Mathias Stearn: Module Mapping P1484
   mapping to source files. mapping to BMI. Where to find a header unit

Michael Spencer and Ben Boeckel: Dependency Scanning
   What we've found, and what others might want to do. This is from the impl's perspective.
   Does the "can we make it fast?" belong in the TR?

Mathias Stearn + Rene Rivera: Build Performance?
   Can't get recommendations yet based off of current work
   Different models of building? Concurrent BMI and .o vs. distinct builds. Needs research
   Chicken and Egg

Ben Craig + Tom Honermann + Steve Downey + Stephen Kelly: Codebase Transition Path

Olga Arkhipova + Bruno Cardoso Lopes (maybe?): BMI Distribution

Mathias + Ben + Googler TBD: Distributed build

Microsoft (Gaby + Olga): Dependency scanning vs explicit module dependencies build

Michael Spencer: Incremental Builds (information on performance and build theory)

Anna Gringauze, Tom Honermann: Building BMIs only for tooling consumption:
   Probably going to look at source. Explain how tools are different from compilers.
   Sharing BMIs between compilers and tools.

Bruno Cardoso Lopes (maybe?): BMI Configuration:

   Header only library
   Module Naming
   Module Granularity

Stakeholders to be covered on a per item basis

Hope that another meeting we can establish priorities

Received on 2019-03-23 02:35:53