> You may be assuming that the worker machines in a distributed build
> environment have access to the original source.

Hmm, I don't think I am.

> In many cases they do not.

Fully agreed. I am familiar with distributed build setups.

My questions are clarifying questions, to help me understand the parts of your proposal I don't think I fully understand yet. Specifically, I don't understand why the compiler would go through the troubles of emitting something like that when it would be simpler to just supply the switch -ftreat-imports-as-glorified-headers. The sources could still be preprocessed and retain the imports, etc.

-- Gaby

| -----Original Message-----
| From: Ben Craig <ben.craig_at_[hidden]>
| Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2019 11:27 AM
| To: Gabriel Dos Reis <gdr_at_microsoft.com>
| Cc: modules_at_[hidden]; WG21 Tooling Study Group SG15
| <tooling_at_[hidden]>; Nathan Sidwell <nathan_at_acm.org>
| Subject: RE: [isocpp-modules] Round2: Path to modules with old bad build
| systems
|
| You may be assuming that the worker machines in a distributed build
| environment have access to the original source. In many cases they do not.
| Not everything is pointed at a shared network server. When they include
| <boost/log.h> or import abseil.foo, they have no access to a file system that
| contains the backing files. Also, if one of the backing files changes, then that
| should generally cause a cache miss in the caching tools.
|
| Mathias's suggestion of a "single stream" format works too. If the compiler
| can emit (and then later consume) a .zip or some other kind of archive file
| format, then those binary file formats can be transmitted across the network
| for distribution, and stored (and hashed) in caching tools.
|
| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: Gabriel Dos Reis <gdr_at_microsoft.com>
| > Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2019 11:19 AM
| > To: Ben Craig <ben.craig_at_ni.com>
| > Cc: modules_at_[hidden]; WG21 Tooling Study Group SG15
| > <tooling_at_[hidden]>; Nathan Sidwell <nathan_at_acm.org>
| > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [isocpp-modules] Round2: Path to modules with
| old
| > bad build systems
| >
| >
| >
| > > On Mar 5, 2019, at 9:10 AM, Ben Craig <ben.craig_at_ni.com> wrote:
| > >
| > > Here are two use cases (that I've mentioned before) for a flattened
| > > file format that doesn't need to be parse-able by third party tools
| > > 1) Distributed build systems like distcc and FASTBuild that currently
| > preprocess a file and send the file over the network to be compiled. These
| > tools don't currently have a way to reach back over the network to pick up
| > artifacts on the host machine.
| > > 2) Object caching tools, like ccache that use the preprocessed output of a
| > file as a key in a map from preprocessed output to built object file.
| >
| > I acknowledge all those scenarios. My real question is why the compiler
| has
| > to go through the trouble of emitting such text, as opposed to being
| invoked
| > on the other end with say -ftreat-imports-as-glorified headers? Tools like
| > ccache couldn’t care less where the preprocessed file contains these
| magical
| > pragmas or not.
| >
| > — Gaby
| >
| > >
| > >> -----Original Message-----
| > >> From: Gabriel Dos Reis <gdr_at_microsoft.com>
| > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2019 11:04 AM
| > >> To: Ben Craig <ben.craig_at_[hidden]om>
| > >> Cc: modules_at_[hidden]; WG21 Tooling Study Group SG15
| > >> <tooling_at_[hidden]>; Nathan Sidwell <nathan_at_acm.org>
| > >> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [isocpp-modules] Round2: Path to modules with
| > >> old bad build systems
| > >>
| > >> If the flattened file format doesn’t need to be parse-able by third
| > >> party tools, then why go through the trouble of generating it in the
| > >> first place - requiring additional language extensions at the source level?
| > >>
| > >> — Gaby
| > >>
| > >>> On Mar 5, 2019, at 8:43 AM, Ben Craig <ben.craig_at_ni.com> wrote:
| > >>>
| > >>> If the flattened file format doesn't need to be parse-able by third
| > >>> party
| > >> tools, then the compiler can do whatever it wants with the text
| > >> format, so long as the compiler itself can consume the resulting file
| > >> on a different machine. Abandoning the parse-able requirement means
| > >> that you could instead do...
| > >>>
| > >>> #pragma module begin(foo)
| > >>> /* base64 encoded implicitly generated BMI */ #pragma module
| > >>> end(foo)
| > >>>
| > >>> No cross-vendor spec would be necessary for such an approach.
| > >>>
| > >>>> -----Original Message-----
| > >>>> From: Modules <modules-bounces_at_lists.isocpp.org> On Behalf Of
| > >> Gabriel
| > >>>> Dos Reis via Modules
| > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:19 AM
| > >>>> To: modules_at_[hidden]
| > >>>> Cc: Gabriel Dos Reis <gdr_at_[hidden]>; WG21 Tooling Study
| Group
| > >>>> SG15 <tooling_at_open-std.org>; Nathan Sidwell <nathan_at_acm.org>
| > >>>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [isocpp-modules] Round2: Path to modules
| > >>>> with old bad build systems
| > >>>>
| > >>>>
| > >>>>
| > >>>>> On Mar 5, 2019, at 8:12 AM, Ben Craig <ben.craig_at_ni.com> wrote:
| > >>>>>
| > >>>>> I will concede that static analysis tools and other tools that try
| > >>>>> to parse C++
| > >>>> probably don't need a textual inclusion format, since they most
| > >>>> likely need to be able to parse and understand the pragmas anyway.
| > >>>> If module mapping is sufficiently straightforward, then those tools
| > >>>> can do module lookup the same as a compiler. Those tools already
| > >>>> need to do include lookup in the same way that compilers do.
| > >>>>
| > >>>> I haven’t yet seen a mapping that isn’t straightforward :-)
| > >>>>
| > >>>>>
| > >>>>> I think the textual inclusion format will still be very useful to
| > >>>>> distribution
| > >>>> and caching tools though, as they don't need to understand the code.
| > >>>> Those tools frequently lean on the compiler's preprocessor today,
| > >>>> and don't know how to do include lookups.
| > >>>>
| > >>>> I don’t know there is an actual spec of such flattened text file
| > >>>> that isn’t at least as involved as the module spec - if not more
| involved.
| > >>>>
| > >>>> I worry that we may be creating a more complex problem than the
| > >>>> issue we are set to address.
| > >>>>
| > >>>> — Gaby
| > >>>>
| > >>>>>
| > >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
| > >>>>>> From: Nathan Sidwell <nathanmsidwell_at_gmail.com> On Behalf Of
| > >> Nathan
| > >>>>>> Sidwell
| > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2019 6:04 AM
| > >>>>>> To: Ben Craig <ben.craig_at_ni.com>; modules_at_lists.isocpp.org;
| WG21
| > >>>>>> Tooling Study Group SG15 <tooling_at_open-std.org>
| > >>>>>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [isocpp-modules] Round2: Path to modules
| > >>>>>> with old bad build systems
| > >>>>>>
| > >>>>>>> On 3/4/19 10:02 AM, Ben Craig wrote:
| > >>>>>>> I do mean textual inclusion, though I can be convinced otherwise.
| > >>>>>>> Textual
| > >>>>>> inclusion (with extra generated pragmas) should make it much
| > >>>>>> easier to keep tools like distcc and cppcheck happy in the short
| > >>>>>> term. I suspect that those tools don't want to crack open a BMI
| > >>>>>> to figure out which other BMIs need to be found.
| > >>>>>>>
| > >>>>>>> Tools that (think they can) parse C++ will still need to
| > >>>>>>> understand these
| > >>>>>> pragmas in order to provide the right macro, visibility, and
| > >>>>>> reachability behaviors, so some work will still be required on
| > >>>>>> their part, but at least they won't need to understand new binary
| > >> formats.
| > >>>>>>
| > >>>>>> Correct, tools consuming such #pragma-marked flattened source
| > >>>>>> will need to understand modules at a fundamental level. As such,
| > >>>>>> why not implement the same mechanisms to find module source as
| > >>>>>> the
| > >> compiler?
| > >>>>>> That'll give them more information to perform code analysis with.
| > >>>>>>
| > >>>>>> nathan
| > >>>>>>
| > >>>>>>>>> On 3/2/19 1:03 PM, Ben Craig wrote:
| > >>>>>>>>>
| > >>>>>>>>> Some quick notes on this implementation strategy:
| > >>>>>>>>> * Uses TEXTUAL inclusion
| > >>>>>>>>> * Compiler assumes that the build system knows nothing of
| > BMIs
| > >>>>>>>>> * Compiler needs to be able to do module mapping with
| minimal
| > >>>>>>>>> input from users.
| > >>>>>>>>
| > >>>>>>>> Do you literally mean textual inclusion or do you really mean
| > >>>>>>>> dynamically produce an internal-only BMI object?
| > >>>>>>>>
| > >>>>>>>> nathan
| > >>>>>>>>
| > >>>>>>>> --
| > >>>>>>>> Nathan Sidwell
| > >>>>>>
| > >>>>>>
| > >>>>>> --
| > >>>>>> Nathan Sidwell
| > >>>>> _______________________________________________
| > >>>>> Modules mailing list
| > >>>>> Modules_at_lists.isocpp.org
| > >>>>> Subscription:
| > >>>>>
| https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furlde
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| 4108530937407&amp;sdata=XdcQl%2Fzp5x4zZI0JXVnzUCV9YUR208BPnIc0Yc
| nzh48%3D&amp;reserved=0
| > 3A__nam06.safelin
| > >>>>> ks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-
| > 252Furldefense.
| > >>>>> proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttps-2D-26amp-
| 3Bdata-
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| > 3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=I_0YwoKy7z5LMTVd
| > >>>>> yO6YCiE2uzI1jjZZuIPelcSjixA&r=y8mub81SfUi-
| > UCZRX0Vl1g&m=zRBB7ngX1sZ
| > >>>>> WaksjZq9yWSoeKaf6vLIPPSby0m8osco&s=Gt0wubq23-
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| > >>>>> -xkSdPsBTv4U&e=
| > >> 3A__nam06.safelinks
| > >>>>> .protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-
| > >> 252Furldefense.proo
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| > >>>>> p-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Cgdr-2540microsoft.com-
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| > >> 3Dp7A5pBCX07tWsIhQL6SmfcP6iu
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| > >> 3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=I_0YwoKy7z5LM
| > >>>>> TVdyO6YCiE2uzI1jjZZuIPelcSjixA&r=y8mub81SfUi-
| > >> UCZRX0Vl1g&m=OVMNvDsyTU
| > >>>>> HgfVyzp-kJjPXybT2k8OAlWfIf-It-W20&s=ceh-
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| > >>>>> rotection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flists.isocpp.org
| > >>>>> -2
| > >>>>> 52
| > >>>>> Fmailman-252Flistinfo.cgi-252Fmodules-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-
| 257C01-
| > >>>> 257Cgdr
| > >>>>> -2540microsoft.com-257Ca5f3d89c3d7d4346707f08d6a1854be8-
| > >>>> 257C72f988bf86
| > >>>>> f141af91ab2d7cd011db47-257C1-257C0-257C636873991217371177-
| > >> 26amp-
| > >>>> 3Bsdat
| > >>>>> a-3DRwfoGFvU8Df-252F2llvXjbpAiIIG-252B0RxL4Su8ewJeoypCw-
| > 253D-
| > >>>> 26amp-3Br
| > >>>>> eserved-
| > >>>>
| > 3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=I_0YwoKy7z5LMTVdyO6YCiE2uzI1jjZZuIPelcSjixA&r=y
| > >>>>> 8mub81SfUi-
| > >>>>
| > >>
| >
| UCZRX0Vl1g&m=AdhXKMaBKONGion_X4H9mmw08XjCtqqGoeW9bs7cVuQ&
| > >>>> s=
| > >>>>> ofQHenjonX7d85yaK2-6F3x_myxVyMcitwJo9rUo8gI&e=
| > >>>>> Link to this post:
| > >>>>>
| https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furlde
| fense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-
| &amp;data=02%7C01%7Cgdr%40microsoft.com%7C5ba1860ebca547ea2b16
| 08d6a1a09c8a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63687
| 4108530937407&amp;sdata=XdcQl%2Fzp5x4zZI0JXVnzUCV9YUR208BPnIc0Yc
| nzh48%3D&amp;reserved=0
| > 3A__nam06.safelin
| > >>>>> ks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-
| > 252Furldefense.
| > >>>>> proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttps-2D-26amp-
| 3Bdata-
| > 3D02
| > >>>>> -257C01-257Cgdr-2540microsoft.com-
| > 257Cbb5ce952bffc482e87b108d6a18d
| > >>>>> 66a7-257C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47-257C1-257C0-
| > 257C63687402
| > >>>>> 6040110157-26amp-3Bsdata-3DB7tMwaCrtynz2Hru8w-252B-
| > 252FilQOK7FRTTF
| > >>>>> RGCvUnzQRBvI-253D-26amp-3Breserved-
| > 3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=I_0YwoKy7z5LMTVd
| > >>>>> yO6YCiE2uzI1jjZZuIPelcSjixA&r=y8mub81SfUi-
| > UCZRX0Vl1g&m=zRBB7ngX1sZ
| > >>>>> WaksjZq9yWSoeKaf6vLIPPSby0m8osco&s=Gt0wubq23-
| > ZhAHWBXMgBTcVDBWoGbTe
| > >>>>> -xkSdPsBTv4U&e=
| > >> 3A__nam06.safelinks
| > >>>>> .protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-
| > >> 252Furldefense.proo
| > >>>>> fpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttps-2D3A-5F-
| > >> 5Fnam06.safelinks.
| > >>>>> p-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Cgdr-2540microsoft.com-
| > >> 257Cb10248c40d1
| > >>>>> 04406a58008d6a1899f80-257C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47-
| > >> 257C1-257
| > >>>>> C0-257C636874009800024740-26amp-3Bsdata-
| > >> 3Dp7A5pBCX07tWsIhQL6SmfcP6iu
| > >>>>> nVFWqvUY1vKEw69t8-253D-26amp-3Breserved-
| > >> 3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=I_0YwoKy7z5LM
| > >>>>> TVdyO6YCiE2uzI1jjZZuIPelcSjixA&r=y8mub81SfUi-
| > >> UCZRX0Vl1g&m=OVMNvDsyTU
| > >>>>> HgfVyzp-kJjPXybT2k8OAlWfIf-It-W20&s=ceh-
| > >> yGW5IKak5viXjbJplZ1eOuUh8QuG
| > >>>>> -ECUU_y4QqY&e=
| > >>>>> rotection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flists.isocpp.org
| > >>>>> -2
| > >>>>> 52
| > >>>>> Fmodules-252F2019-252F03-252F0145.php-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-
| > 257C01-
| > >>>> 257Cgdr
| > >>>>> -2540microsoft.com-257Ca5f3d89c3d7d4346707f08d6a1854be8-
| > >>>> 257C72f988bf86
| > >>>>> f141af91ab2d7cd011db47-257C1-257C0-257C636873991217371177-
| > >> 26amp-
| > >>>> 3Bsdat
| > >>>>> a-3DOuOtS6D49Sy5EhRl8VUpv-252ByE5esxGZ7dvPvf-252Be1zr1c-
| > 253D-
| > >>>> 26amp-3Br
| > >>>>> eserved-
| > >>>>
| > 3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=I_0YwoKy7z5LMTVdyO6YCiE2uzI1jjZZuIPelcSjixA&r=y
| > >>>>> 8mub81SfUi-
| > >>>>
| > >>
| >
| UCZRX0Vl1g&m=AdhXKMaBKONGion_X4H9mmw08XjCtqqGoeW9bs7cVuQ&
| > >>>> s=
| > >>>>> sg8E8Gx-jIbRDIRalv20OlbIkHaNJbyC3TwX8-ueRDU&e=
| > >>>> _______________________________________________
| > >>>> Modules mailing list
| > >>>> Modules_at_[hidden]
| > >>>> Subscription:
| > >>>>
| https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furlde
| fense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-
| &amp;data=02%7C01%7Cgdr%40microsoft.com%7C5ba1860ebca547ea2b16
| 08d6a1a09c8a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63687
| 4108530937407&amp;sdata=XdcQl%2Fzp5x4zZI0JXVnzUCV9YUR208BPnIc0Yc
| nzh48%3D&amp;reserved=0
| > 3A__nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-
| > 252Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttps-2D3A-
| 5F-
| > 5Fnam06.safelinks-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Cgdr-
| 2540microsoft.com-
| > 257Cbb5ce952bffc482e87b108d6a18d66a7-
| > 257C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47-257C1-257C0-
| > 257C636874026040110157-26amp-3Bsdata-
| > 3Dypcf1hy9wb9Y5IsJTmgg0OJiClBGm2rlS4ryjKxaEiI-253D-26amp-
| 3Breserved-
| >
| 3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=I_0YwoKy7z5LMTVdyO6YCiE2uzI1jjZZuIPelcSjixA&r=y8m
| > ub81SfUi-
| > UCZRX0Vl1g&m=zRBB7ngX1sZWaksjZq9yWSoeKaf6vLIPPSby0m8osco&s=ohj
| > R14bgYnHsi79fNDd_iWjs7fY8OBX3nyJI8zxEU00&e=.
| > >>>> protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-
| > >> 252Furldefense.proofp
| > >>>> oint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttp-2D-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-
| > >> 257C01-25
| > >>>> 7Cgdr-2540microsoft.com-
| 257Cb10248c40d104406a58008d6a1899f80-
| > >> 257C72f9
| > >>>> 88bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47-257C1-257C0-
| > 257C636874009800024740-
| > >> 26amp
| > >>>> -3Bsdata-3DvJxYGAlfPqfe-252BB6HOBD4JCjOZSEP9Sc1fKDJt8ehEu4-
| > 253D-
| > >> 26amp
| > >>>> -3Breserved-
| > >> 3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=I_0YwoKy7z5LMTVdyO6YCiE2uzI1jjZZuIPelcSjix
| > >>>> A&r=y8mub81SfUi-UCZRX0Vl1g&m=OVMNvDsyTUHgfVyzp-
| > >> kJjPXybT2k8OAlWfIf-It-
| > >>>> W20&s=LGVTU9QiQe6-6qXpL9XYoNaa4f0qPN5ydsuaoCSBxQU&e=
| > >>>>
| > >>
| >
| 3A__lists.isocpp.org_mailman_listinfo.cgi_modules&d=DwIGaQ&c=I_0YwoK
| > >>>> y7z5LMTVdyO6YCiE2uzI1jjZZuIPelcSjixA&r=y8mub81SfUi-
| > >>>>
| > >>
| >
| UCZRX0Vl1g&m=AdhXKMaBKONGion_X4H9mmw08XjCtqqGoeW9bs7cVuQ&
| > >>>> s=gmG6dYi-y2pNIFyGrUsRGlDKCKRKWf4WQQlvzQDWM-s&e=
| > >>>> Link to this post:
| > >>>>
| https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furlde
| fense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-
| &amp;data=02%7C01%7Cgdr%40microsoft.com%7C5ba1860ebca547ea2b16
| 08d6a1a09c8a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63687
| 4108530937407&amp;sdata=XdcQl%2Fzp5x4zZI0JXVnzUCV9YUR208BPnIc0Yc
| nzh48%3D&amp;reserved=0
| > 3A__nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-
| > 252Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttps-2D3A-
| 5F-
| > 5Fnam06.safelinks-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Cgdr-
| 2540microsoft.com-
| > 257Cbb5ce952bffc482e87b108d6a18d66a7-
| > 257C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47-257C1-257C0-
| > 257C636874026040110157-26amp-3Bsdata-
| > 3Dypcf1hy9wb9Y5IsJTmgg0OJiClBGm2rlS4ryjKxaEiI-253D-26amp-
| 3Breserved-
| >
| 3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=I_0YwoKy7z5LMTVdyO6YCiE2uzI1jjZZuIPelcSjixA&r=y8m
| > ub81SfUi-
| > UCZRX0Vl1g&m=zRBB7ngX1sZWaksjZq9yWSoeKaf6vLIPPSby0m8osco&s=ohj
| > R14bgYnHsi79fNDd_iWjs7fY8OBX3nyJI8zxEU00&e=.
| > >>>> protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-
| > >> 252Furldefense.proofp
| > >>>> oint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttp-2D-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-
| > >> 257C01-25
| > >>>> 7Cgdr-2540microsoft.com-
| 257Cb10248c40d104406a58008d6a1899f80-
| > >> 257C72f9
| > >>>> 88bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47-257C1-257C0-
| > 257C636874009800034748-
| > >> 26amp
| > >>>> -3Bsdata-3D123o9Z3tNcVY-
| > 252FTsR6VbHITcMCHsPMk3459OhqCqpGwk-
| > >> 253D-26amp
| > >>>> -3Breserved-
| > >> 3D0&d=DwIGaQ&c=I_0YwoKy7z5LMTVdyO6YCiE2uzI1jjZZuIPelcSjix
| > >>>> A&r=y8mub81SfUi-UCZRX0Vl1g&m=OVMNvDsyTUHgfVyzp-
| > >> kJjPXybT2k8OAlWfIf-It-
| > >>>> W20&s=Kjdm4tjilk-j7xq9maoXFFiZ0PeL2iBPixAyNRRBc4s&e=
| > >>>>
| > >>
| >
| 3A__lists.isocpp.org_modules_2019_03_0147.php&d=DwIGaQ&c=I_0YwoKy
| > >>>> 7z5LMTVdyO6YCiE2uzI1jjZZuIPelcSjixA&r=y8mub81SfUi-
| > >>>>
| > >>
| >
| UCZRX0Vl1g&m=AdhXKMaBKONGion_X4H9mmw08XjCtqqGoeW9bs7cVuQ&
| > >>>> s=51GVUSm-w3aQdhBiPoTvrNnOE6QlopXYmzwNAYDSU5o&e=