Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 15:07:18 -0400
Thanks to Rene Rivera for chairing
On Tue, Jun 7, 2022 at 9:11 PM Michael Wong <fraggamuffin_at_[hidden]> wrote:
> Topic: SG14 Low Latency Monthly This meeting is focused on Games
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Michael Wong is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
>
> Topic: SG14 monthly
> Time: 2nd Wednesdays 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
> Every month on the Second Wed,
>
> Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:
> https://iso.zoom.us/j/93151864365?pwd=aDhOcDNWd2NWdTJuT1loeXpKbTcydz09
> Password: 789626
>
> Or iPhone one-tap :
> US: +12532158782,,93151864365# or +13017158592,,93151864365#
> Or Telephone:
> Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current location):
> US: +1 253 215 8782 or +1 301 715 8592 or +1 312 626 6799 or +1
> 346 248 7799 or +1 408 638 0968 or +1 646 876 9923 or +1 669 900 6833
> or 877 853 5247 (Toll Free)
> Meeting ID: 931 5186 4365
> Password: 789626
> International numbers available: https://iso.zoom.us/u/abRrVivZoD
>
> Or Skype for Business (Lync):
> https://iso.zoom.us/skype/93151864365
>
> Agenda:
>
> 1. Opening and introduction
>
> ISO Code of Conduct
> <
>
> https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink?func=ll&objId=20882226&objAction=Open&nexturl=%2Flivelink%2Flivelink%3Ffunc%3Dll%26objId%3D20158641%26objAction%3Dbrowse%26viewType%3D1
> *>*
>
> ISO patent policy.
>
> https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/2000/2122/3770791/Common_Policy.htm?nodeid=6344764&vernum=-2
>
> IEC Code of Conduct:
>
> https://www.iec.ch/basecamp/iec-code-conduct-technical-work
>
> WG21 Code of Conduct:
>
>
> https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-4-wg21-practices-and-procedures
>
> 1.1 Roll call of participants
>
Rene Rivera
Andrew Drajeford
Arthur O'Dwyer
Kim Nilsson
Staffan Tjernstrom
Arthur O'Dwyer
Matthew Butler
Timur Doumler
Michael Wong
Henry Miller
Chaeley Bay
Ronen Friedman
Jens Maurer
Tristan sizemore
Ka ming Chan
John MacFarlane
>
> 1.2 Adopt agenda
>
> 1.3 Approve minutes from previous meeting, and approve publishing
> previously approved minutes to ISOCPP.org
>
> 1.4 Action items from previous meetings
>
> 2. Main issues (125 min)
>
> 2.1 General logistics
>
> Future meeting plans
>
> *June 8, 2022 02:00 PM ET: Games
> *Jul 13, 2022 02:00 PM ET Embedded
> *Aug 10, 2022 02:00 PM ET: Finance/Low Latency
> *Sep 12, 2022 02:00 PM ET: Games
> *Oct 12, 2022 02:00 PM ET: Embedded
>
> 2.2 Paper reviews
> Discussion on Embedded:
> Review latest mailings:
> P2532 Removing exception_ptr from the receivers concept
> Based on the last meeting and the discussions here.
> P2544 C++ Exceptions are becoming more and more problematic
> We might want to chime in here.
> /Paul
> P. S. P2327 de-deprecating volatile received a "consensus" straw poll.
>
>
> Discussion on Low Latency/Finance topics
>
> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2022/p1839r4.pdf
>
> Patrice's paper on games.
>
> P2300
> Swift
>
>
>
> Discussion about Games topics:
>
> P2388R1 - Minimum Contract Support: either Ignore or Check_and_abort
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2021/p2388r1.html>
>
> Patrice's WIP on Games issues.
>
> Finance topics from July 14, 2021.
>
> https://lists.isocpp.org/sg14/2021/06/0636.php
>
> https://lists.isocpp.org/sg14/2021/07/0642.php
>
std::hive suggestions by Arthur O'dwyer
did a template information
found wierdness
D2596R0: Improve std::hive::reshape (quuxplusone.github.io)
<https://quuxplusone.github.io/draft/d2596-improve-hive-reshape.html>
rope ,but not like a deque
can control blocks
but why larger than Y, why is a maximum blocksize is useful? Minimum yes I
see
is it the memory allocator? but that is in bytes
3.2 max blocksize can cause big O times issues quadratic or linear?
fixed sized rope
AD: max because flatmaps, restricting size of the element they could have
to use a simd instruction - but why would restrict it dynamically by teh
user, probably ok by an implementation
has a hidden state, vector has capacity, copy does not have same capacity.
But what about hive
transient property of a hive
Matthew B please contact Arthur OD regarding these comments
>
> 2.2.1 any other proposal for reviews?
>
> Deterministic Exception for Embedded by James Renwick
>
> https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/78829292/low_cost_deterministic_C_exceptions_for_embedded_systems.pdf
>
> Freestanding?
>
> SG14/SG19 features/issues/defects:
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JnUJBO72QVURttkKr7gn0_WjP--P0vAne8JBfzbRiy0/edit#gid=0
>
> 2.3 Domain-specific discussions
>
> 2.3.1 SIG chairs
>
> - Embedded Programming chairs: Ben Craig, Wouter van Ooijen and Odin
> Holmes, John McFarlane
>
Embo happened.
>
>
> - Financial/Trading chairs: Staffan TjernstrÃm
> Carl Cooke, Neal Horlock,
>
P2590 implicit object creation
>
> - Games chairs: Rene Riviera, Guy Davidson and Paul Hampson, Patrice Roy
>
>
>
> - Linear Algebra chairs: Bob Steagall, Mark Hoemmen, Guy Davidson
>
Intel Dounia Khaldia working on matrix operations based on AMT
BLAS paper is in SG6
Aug timeframe for Bob and Guy paper
>
>
> 2.4 Other Papers and proposals
>
discussion about RUST
14:36:29 From Charles Bay to Everyone:
https://hirrolot.github.io/posts/rust-is-hard-or-the-misery-of-mainstream-programming.html
14:37:06 From Henry Miller to Everyone:
rust is getting attention and we are shipping in some new things. bad
programmers can write garbage code in any language, but the safety would be
nice
14:40:10 From Tristan Sizemore to Everyone:
I have heard it lacks complexity/depth for some (performance) critical
components of (trading/exchange) systems. One of the larger successful
cryptocurrency exchanges uses it heavily for a large percentage of their
core functionality, but are switching to C++ for the reasons mentioned. I
have also heard compile times can be awful.
14:40:23 From Guy Davidson to Everyone:
https://twitter.com/h3r2tic/status/1532829918194806784
14:40:29 From Guy Davidson to Everyone:
https://github.com/EmbarkStudios/kajiya/blob/main/docs/gi-overview.md
14:41:08 From Matthew Butler to Everyone:
Wow. Very smooth.
14:42:19 From Michael Wong to Everyone:
Here is one: https://blog.sonatype.com/this-week-in-malware-may-13th-edition
And here is another:
https://portswigger.net/daily-swig/rust-patches-sneaky-redos-bug
14:43:44 From Michael Wong to Everyone:
https://openssf.org/oss-security-mobilization-plan/
14:45:37 From Arthur O'Dwyer to Everyone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism :)
14:46:53 From Charles Bay to Everyone:
"Rust is mainstream like NodeJS is mainstream. NodeJS has less than 2%
marketshare globally. Rust has 0.01% marketshare. Thus Rust is even less
"mainstream" than NodeJS by a factor of ~200. For comparison, C++ still
holds 23% marketshare. (Disclaimer: Percentages here are from a series of
Google searches. Broad marketshare numbers are never accurate but can be
useful for providing some perspective.)" ...from:
https://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=21483756&cid=62601430
14:51:37 From Kim Nilsson to Everyone:
In my community the people are just waiting for the green light from above
to start using Rust. Generally speaking I am seeing a strong correlation
between fans of (hyper) modern C++ and fans of Rust.
14:52:26 From Matthew Butler to Everyone:
The use of UB and Ill-formed, NDR is a real killer for us on safety.
14:53:18 From John McFarlane to Everyone:
A lot of confusion around this: *nobody* advocates use of UB.
14:54:48 From John McFarlane to Everyone:
But for a formal model of what counts as a bug, either UB or something v.
similar is invaluable.
14:58:44 From Kim Nilsson to Everyone:
Have to leave. Bye everyone!
15:00:26 From René Ferdinand Rivera Morell to Everyone:
https://ziglang.org/
15:00:41 From Timur Doumler to Everyone:
I know some embedded people who are huge fans of Zig!
15:00:47 From Guy Davidson to Everyone:
https://ziglang.org/
15:01:18 From John McFarlane to Everyone:
https://ziglang.org/learn/overview/#performance-and-safety-choose-two
15:01:27 From Timur Doumler to Everyone:
Michael, you should ping David Sankel and ask him to give you his slides or
a recording of his talk or something
15:01:38 From Timur Doumler to Everyone:
“Rust features I want to have in C++"
15:04:40 From Henry Miller to Everyone:
if you can't find someone I'll ask my boss about going, right now all
travel still has to be approved but that should change
>
>
> 2.5 Future F2F meetings:
>
> 2.6 future C++ Standard meetings:
> https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings
>
> -
>
> 3. Any other business
> Reflector
> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
> As well as look through papers marked "SG14" in recent standards committee
> paper mailings:
> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/
> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/
>
> Code and proposal Staging area
> https://github.com/WG21-SG14/SG14
> 4. Review
>
> 4.1 Review and approve resolutions and issues [e.g., changes to SG's
> working draft]
>
> 4.2 Review action items (5 min)
>
> 5. Closing process
>
> 5.1 Establish next agenda
>
> 5.2 Future meeting
>
>
> *Apr 13, 2022 02:00 PM ET Finance/Low Latency
> *May 11, 2022 02:00 PM ET: Games CANCELLED
> *June 8, 2022 02:00 PM ET: Games
> *Jul 13, 2022 02:00 PM ET Embedded
> *Aug 10, 2022 02:00 PM ET: Finance/Low Latency
> *Sep 12, 2022 02:00 PM ET: Games
> *Oct 12, 2022 02:00 PM ET: Embedded
>
On Tue, Jun 7, 2022 at 9:11 PM Michael Wong <fraggamuffin_at_[hidden]> wrote:
> Topic: SG14 Low Latency Monthly This meeting is focused on Games
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Michael Wong is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
>
> Topic: SG14 monthly
> Time: 2nd Wednesdays 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
> Every month on the Second Wed,
>
> Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:
> https://iso.zoom.us/j/93151864365?pwd=aDhOcDNWd2NWdTJuT1loeXpKbTcydz09
> Password: 789626
>
> Or iPhone one-tap :
> US: +12532158782,,93151864365# or +13017158592,,93151864365#
> Or Telephone:
> Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current location):
> US: +1 253 215 8782 or +1 301 715 8592 or +1 312 626 6799 or +1
> 346 248 7799 or +1 408 638 0968 or +1 646 876 9923 or +1 669 900 6833
> or 877 853 5247 (Toll Free)
> Meeting ID: 931 5186 4365
> Password: 789626
> International numbers available: https://iso.zoom.us/u/abRrVivZoD
>
> Or Skype for Business (Lync):
> https://iso.zoom.us/skype/93151864365
>
> Agenda:
>
> 1. Opening and introduction
>
> ISO Code of Conduct
> <
>
> https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink?func=ll&objId=20882226&objAction=Open&nexturl=%2Flivelink%2Flivelink%3Ffunc%3Dll%26objId%3D20158641%26objAction%3Dbrowse%26viewType%3D1
> *>*
>
> ISO patent policy.
>
> https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/2000/2122/3770791/Common_Policy.htm?nodeid=6344764&vernum=-2
>
> IEC Code of Conduct:
>
> https://www.iec.ch/basecamp/iec-code-conduct-technical-work
>
> WG21 Code of Conduct:
>
>
> https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-4-wg21-practices-and-procedures
>
> 1.1 Roll call of participants
>
Rene Rivera
Andrew Drajeford
Arthur O'Dwyer
Kim Nilsson
Staffan Tjernstrom
Arthur O'Dwyer
Matthew Butler
Timur Doumler
Michael Wong
Henry Miller
Chaeley Bay
Ronen Friedman
Jens Maurer
Tristan sizemore
Ka ming Chan
John MacFarlane
>
> 1.2 Adopt agenda
>
> 1.3 Approve minutes from previous meeting, and approve publishing
> previously approved minutes to ISOCPP.org
>
> 1.4 Action items from previous meetings
>
> 2. Main issues (125 min)
>
> 2.1 General logistics
>
> Future meeting plans
>
> *June 8, 2022 02:00 PM ET: Games
> *Jul 13, 2022 02:00 PM ET Embedded
> *Aug 10, 2022 02:00 PM ET: Finance/Low Latency
> *Sep 12, 2022 02:00 PM ET: Games
> *Oct 12, 2022 02:00 PM ET: Embedded
>
> 2.2 Paper reviews
> Discussion on Embedded:
> Review latest mailings:
> P2532 Removing exception_ptr from the receivers concept
> Based on the last meeting and the discussions here.
> P2544 C++ Exceptions are becoming more and more problematic
> We might want to chime in here.
> /Paul
> P. S. P2327 de-deprecating volatile received a "consensus" straw poll.
>
>
> Discussion on Low Latency/Finance topics
>
> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2022/p1839r4.pdf
>
> Patrice's paper on games.
>
> P2300
> Swift
>
>
>
> Discussion about Games topics:
>
> P2388R1 - Minimum Contract Support: either Ignore or Check_and_abort
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2021/p2388r1.html>
>
> Patrice's WIP on Games issues.
>
> Finance topics from July 14, 2021.
>
> https://lists.isocpp.org/sg14/2021/06/0636.php
>
> https://lists.isocpp.org/sg14/2021/07/0642.php
>
std::hive suggestions by Arthur O'dwyer
did a template information
found wierdness
D2596R0: Improve std::hive::reshape (quuxplusone.github.io)
<https://quuxplusone.github.io/draft/d2596-improve-hive-reshape.html>
rope ,but not like a deque
can control blocks
but why larger than Y, why is a maximum blocksize is useful? Minimum yes I
see
is it the memory allocator? but that is in bytes
3.2 max blocksize can cause big O times issues quadratic or linear?
fixed sized rope
AD: max because flatmaps, restricting size of the element they could have
to use a simd instruction - but why would restrict it dynamically by teh
user, probably ok by an implementation
has a hidden state, vector has capacity, copy does not have same capacity.
But what about hive
transient property of a hive
Matthew B please contact Arthur OD regarding these comments
>
> 2.2.1 any other proposal for reviews?
>
> Deterministic Exception for Embedded by James Renwick
>
> https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/78829292/low_cost_deterministic_C_exceptions_for_embedded_systems.pdf
>
> Freestanding?
>
> SG14/SG19 features/issues/defects:
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JnUJBO72QVURttkKr7gn0_WjP--P0vAne8JBfzbRiy0/edit#gid=0
>
> 2.3 Domain-specific discussions
>
> 2.3.1 SIG chairs
>
> - Embedded Programming chairs: Ben Craig, Wouter van Ooijen and Odin
> Holmes, John McFarlane
>
Embo happened.
>
>
> - Financial/Trading chairs: Staffan TjernstrÃm
> Carl Cooke, Neal Horlock,
>
P2590 implicit object creation
>
> - Games chairs: Rene Riviera, Guy Davidson and Paul Hampson, Patrice Roy
>
>
>
> - Linear Algebra chairs: Bob Steagall, Mark Hoemmen, Guy Davidson
>
Intel Dounia Khaldia working on matrix operations based on AMT
BLAS paper is in SG6
Aug timeframe for Bob and Guy paper
>
>
> 2.4 Other Papers and proposals
>
discussion about RUST
14:36:29 From Charles Bay to Everyone:
https://hirrolot.github.io/posts/rust-is-hard-or-the-misery-of-mainstream-programming.html
14:37:06 From Henry Miller to Everyone:
rust is getting attention and we are shipping in some new things. bad
programmers can write garbage code in any language, but the safety would be
nice
14:40:10 From Tristan Sizemore to Everyone:
I have heard it lacks complexity/depth for some (performance) critical
components of (trading/exchange) systems. One of the larger successful
cryptocurrency exchanges uses it heavily for a large percentage of their
core functionality, but are switching to C++ for the reasons mentioned. I
have also heard compile times can be awful.
14:40:23 From Guy Davidson to Everyone:
https://twitter.com/h3r2tic/status/1532829918194806784
14:40:29 From Guy Davidson to Everyone:
https://github.com/EmbarkStudios/kajiya/blob/main/docs/gi-overview.md
14:41:08 From Matthew Butler to Everyone:
Wow. Very smooth.
14:42:19 From Michael Wong to Everyone:
Here is one: https://blog.sonatype.com/this-week-in-malware-may-13th-edition
And here is another:
https://portswigger.net/daily-swig/rust-patches-sneaky-redos-bug
14:43:44 From Michael Wong to Everyone:
https://openssf.org/oss-security-mobilization-plan/
14:45:37 From Arthur O'Dwyer to Everyone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism :)
14:46:53 From Charles Bay to Everyone:
"Rust is mainstream like NodeJS is mainstream. NodeJS has less than 2%
marketshare globally. Rust has 0.01% marketshare. Thus Rust is even less
"mainstream" than NodeJS by a factor of ~200. For comparison, C++ still
holds 23% marketshare. (Disclaimer: Percentages here are from a series of
Google searches. Broad marketshare numbers are never accurate but can be
useful for providing some perspective.)" ...from:
https://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=21483756&cid=62601430
14:51:37 From Kim Nilsson to Everyone:
In my community the people are just waiting for the green light from above
to start using Rust. Generally speaking I am seeing a strong correlation
between fans of (hyper) modern C++ and fans of Rust.
14:52:26 From Matthew Butler to Everyone:
The use of UB and Ill-formed, NDR is a real killer for us on safety.
14:53:18 From John McFarlane to Everyone:
A lot of confusion around this: *nobody* advocates use of UB.
14:54:48 From John McFarlane to Everyone:
But for a formal model of what counts as a bug, either UB or something v.
similar is invaluable.
14:58:44 From Kim Nilsson to Everyone:
Have to leave. Bye everyone!
15:00:26 From René Ferdinand Rivera Morell to Everyone:
https://ziglang.org/
15:00:41 From Timur Doumler to Everyone:
I know some embedded people who are huge fans of Zig!
15:00:47 From Guy Davidson to Everyone:
https://ziglang.org/
15:01:18 From John McFarlane to Everyone:
https://ziglang.org/learn/overview/#performance-and-safety-choose-two
15:01:27 From Timur Doumler to Everyone:
Michael, you should ping David Sankel and ask him to give you his slides or
a recording of his talk or something
15:01:38 From Timur Doumler to Everyone:
“Rust features I want to have in C++"
15:04:40 From Henry Miller to Everyone:
if you can't find someone I'll ask my boss about going, right now all
travel still has to be approved but that should change
>
>
> 2.5 Future F2F meetings:
>
> 2.6 future C++ Standard meetings:
> https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings
>
> -
>
> 3. Any other business
> Reflector
> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
> As well as look through papers marked "SG14" in recent standards committee
> paper mailings:
> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/
> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/
>
> Code and proposal Staging area
> https://github.com/WG21-SG14/SG14
> 4. Review
>
> 4.1 Review and approve resolutions and issues [e.g., changes to SG's
> working draft]
>
> 4.2 Review action items (5 min)
>
> 5. Closing process
>
> 5.1 Establish next agenda
>
> 5.2 Future meeting
>
>
> *Apr 13, 2022 02:00 PM ET Finance/Low Latency
> *May 11, 2022 02:00 PM ET: Games CANCELLED
> *June 8, 2022 02:00 PM ET: Games
> *Jul 13, 2022 02:00 PM ET Embedded
> *Aug 10, 2022 02:00 PM ET: Finance/Low Latency
> *Sep 12, 2022 02:00 PM ET: Games
> *Oct 12, 2022 02:00 PM ET: Embedded
>
Received on 2022-06-08 19:07:29