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Subject: Re: [std-proposals] A note on adding language features.
From: Arthur O'Dwyer (arthur.j.odwyer_at_[hidden])
Date: 2019-09-25 22:36:16


On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 10:12 PM Jefferson Carpenter via Std-Proposals <
std-proposals_at_[hidden]> wrote:

> I should have followed my own advice: never write things right before
> you go to sleep.
>

FWIW, I thought your manifesto was well-written, accurate, and needed. I
wish *more* programmers would speak up about C++! My only nitpick is that
you got a tiny bit hyperbolic in the last sentence. ;)

In their closing keynote of the Back-to-Basics track at CppCon 2019, "What
is C++?" Chandler Carruth and Titus Winters make a similar point about the
relative complexities of C (well, C89) and C++ — that essentially any
expert C programmer could write a C89 compiler given funding and time, but
essentially no expert C++ programmers today can write a C++ compiler. (If
this wasn't true of C++03, it's certainly true of C++11 constexpr; and it's
far-and-away true of C++2a concepts and coroutines!)

–Arthur

> On 9/26/2019 2:02 AM, Jefferson Carpenter wrote:
> > As tempting as it is to add new and powerful features to the language,
> > for various reasons from simplifying existing code to 'keeping up' with
> > other languages out in the field, it's a dangerous and bloody art to do
> so.
> >
> > The C++ spec may define the syntax and evaluation semantics of the
> > language, but what breathes life into it is the compiler. The more
> > complicated the spec is, the more complicated the compiler must become.
> > We're fortunate to have a diverse set of c++ compilers from the
> > proprietary to the open source, but the more features get added, the
> > higher the initial cost to creating a new viable c++ compiler project.
> >
> > Slow and steady wins the race. There does not exist a language feature
> > (except maybe value semantics) that will not, at some point in the near
> > or far future, become invalidated by cleaner ways of doing the same
> > thing. Adding too many features kills languages. Optimally, the rate
> > at which features are added should be equal to the rate at which they
> > are deprecated and removed, over long time spans. This ensures that
> > compiler writers will not have to do too much up-front work to learn to
> > maintain a compiler or to write a new one.
> >
> > To pick on coroutines (although they certainly can be useful), co_await,
> > co_yield, and co_return can be implemented as library functions
> > abstracting and making platform-independent the existing functions
> > setjmp and longjmp, with only the overhead of keeping a reference to
> > some state holding the continuation in the calling code and the
> > continuation in the coroutine. Additionally, while coroutines make
> > serial asynchronous operations easier to write, they cannot do the same
> > for parallel asynchronous operations without potentially pessimizing
> > performance. In "x = co_await y; x2 = co_await y2;" x2 cannot be
> > assigned before x has been assigned - even if y2 completes before y -
> > unless the compiler can come up with a proof that such re-ordering does
> > not change the visible behavior of the program. Instruction reordering
> > and the as-if rule already indicate that the semantics of C++ place too
> > much emphasis on the sequencing of operations over the dependency graph
> > of data.
> >
> > As excited as I am for new C++20 features including concepts and
> > coroutines, I'm more excited for the deprecation of most of volatile. I
> > want the language to be well understood as-is so that it can be reasoned
> > about, the real pain points identified, and the spec slowly changed to
> > meet new needs with the patience of a community that deserves to
> > continue to beat until the last program is written and the last rock is
> > dust.
> >
> > Peace,
> > Jefferson
>



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