sg19

From: Jens Maurer <jens.maurer_at_[hidden]> · Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 20:15:25 +0200

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Meeting ID:  978 0073 4479
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On 14.08.25 20:08, Scott McMillan via SG19 wrote:
> I am not able to join the meeting…is there a different zoom link.
> 
>  
> 
> ---
> 
> Scott McMillan, PhD
> 
> Principal Research Engineer
> 
> Advanced Computing Lab
> 
> AI Division
> 
> *Software Engineering Institute***
> 
> *Carnegie Mellon University*
> 
>  
> 
> *From:*SG19 <sg19-bounces_at_[hidden]> *On Behalf Of *Michael Wong via SG19
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 13, 2025 5:17 PM
> *To:* sg19_at_[hidden]
> *Cc:* Michael Wong <fraggamuffin_at_[hidden]>
> *Subject:* [isocpp-sg19] SG19 Aug 14 monthly call
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> *Warning:*External Sender - do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
> 
>  
> 
> Hi all, there will be an SG19 meeting 2 PM ET focused on Stats and then Graph Thank you.
> 
> 
>    JTC1/SC22/WG21 - Papers 2025
>    <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2025/ <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2025/>>). Feedback
>    welcome.
> 
> P1708  Basic Statistics
> 
> https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/p1708r9.pdf <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/p1708r9.pdf>
> 
> P2681 More Basic Statistics
> 
> https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2023/p2681r1.pdf <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2023/p2681r1.pdf>
>    -
>    P3126R3
>    <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2025/p3126r3.pdf <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2025/p3126r3.pdf>>
> Graph
>    Library: Overview Phil Ratzloff, Andrew Lumsdaine 2025-04-13 2025-04
>    P3126R2
>    <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/p3126r2.pdf <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/p3126r2.pdf>>
> SG14
>    Low Latency,SG19 Machine Learning
>    P3127R1
>    <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2025/p3127r1.pdf <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2025/p3127r1.pdf>>
> Graph
>    Library: Background and Terminology Phil Ratzloff, Andrew Lumsdaine
>    2025-04-13 2025-04 P3127R0
>    <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/p3127r0.pdf <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/p3127r0.pdf>>
> SG14
>    Low Latency,SG19 Machine Learning
>    P3128R3
>    <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2025/p3128r3.pdf <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2025/p3128r3.pdf>>
> Graph
>    Library: Algorithms Phil Ratzloff, Andrew Lumsdaine 2025-04-13 2025-04
>    P3128R2
>    <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/p3128r2.pdf <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/p3128r2.pdf>>
> SG14
>    Low Latency,SG19 Machine Learning
>    P3129R1
>    <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2025/p3129r1.pdf <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2025/p3129r1.pdf>>
> Graph
>    Library: Views Phil Ratzloff, Andrew Lumsdaine 2025-04-13 2025-04 P3129R0
>    <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/p3129r0.pdf <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/p3129r0.pdf>>
> SG14
>    Low Latency,SG19 Machine Learning
>    P3130R3
>    <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2025/p3130r3.pdf <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2025/p3130r3.pdf>>
> Graph
>    Library: Graph Container Interface Phil Ratzloff, Andrew Lumsdaine
>    2025-04-13 2025-04 P3130R2
>    <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/p3130r2.pdf <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/p3130r2.pdf>>
> SG14
>    Low Latency,SG19 Machine Learning
>    P3131R3
>    <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2025/p3131r3.pdf <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2025/p3131r3.pdf>>
> Graph
>    Library: Graph Containers Phil Ratzloff, Andrew Lumsdaine 2025-04-13
>    2025-04 P3131R2
>    <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/p3131r2.pdf <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/p3131r2.pdf>>
> SG14
>    Low Latency,SG19 Machine Learning
> 
> 
> Michael Wong is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
> 
> Topic: SG19 monthly
> Time: 2nd Thursdays 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>     Every month on the Second Thu,
> 
> 
> Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:
> 
> https://iso.zoom.us/j/93084591725?pwd=K3QxZjJlcnljaE13ZWU5cTlLNkx0Zz09 <https://iso.zoom.us/j/93084591725?pwd=K3QxZjJlcnljaE13ZWU5cTlLNkx0Zz09>
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> 
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> 
> Or Skype for Business (Lync):
>     https://iso.zoom.us/skype/93084591725 <https://iso.zoom.us/skype/93084591725>
> 
> Agenda:
> 
> 1. Opening and introductions
> 
> The ISO Code of conduct:
> https://www.iso.org/files/live/sites/isoorg/files/store/en/PUB100397.pdf <https://www.iso.org/files/live/sites/isoorg/files/store/en/PUB100397.pdf>
> 
> IEC Code of Conduct:
> 
> https://www.iec.ch/basecamp/iec-code-conduct-technical-work <https://www.iec.ch/basecamp/iec-code-conduct-technical-work>
> 
> ISO patent policy.
> 
> https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/2000/2122/3770791/Common_Policy.htm?nodeid=6344764&vernum=-2 <https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/2000/2122/3770791/Common_Policy.htm?nodeid=6344764&vernum=-2>
> 
> The WG21 Practices and Procedures and Code of Conduct:
> https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-4-wg21-practices-and-procedures <https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-4-wg21-practices-and-procedures>
> 
> 1.1 Roll call of participants
> 
> 1.2 Adopt agenda
> 
> 1.3 Approve minutes from previous meeting, and approve publishing
>  previously approved minutes to ISOCPP.org
> 
> 1.4 Action items from previous meetings
> 
> 2. Main issues (125 min)
> 
> 2.1 General logistics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * Jan 9, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled
> * Feb 13, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Hagenberg F2F; Cancelled
> * Mar 13, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Graph
> * Apr 10, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Stats
> * May 8, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Graph
> * June 12, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Sofia F2F, cancelled
> * July 10, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Stats
> * Aug 14, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Graph
> * Sep 11, 2025 02:00 PM ET: CPPCON, cancelled
> * Oct 9, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Stats
> * Nov 13, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Graph
> * Dec 11, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Stats
> 
> 
> ISO meeting status
> 
> future C++ Std meetings
> 
> 2.2 Paper reviews
> 
> For graph, we have a new draft of P3337 Comparison paper that compares the
> library in performance against boost::graph and NWGraph.
> 
> If Andrew is able to attend, he should be able to review the changes he's
> made to P3126 and P3127.
> 
> 
> P3495 from Oliver/Mark
> 
>>From Phil: There are updates to the P3126 Overview and P3127 Background and
> Terminology papers for the Graph Library. They haven’t been published yet,
> but it would be helpful to get input on them before they’re published.
> 
> 
> 
> Since the changes are a response to Oliver’s concerns, I think Oliver and
> Andrew would need to attend to make it useful to have a session for the
> Graph Library. Unless they want to do that, I think we can send draft
> versions to the reflector, unless there’s a better idea.
> 
> 
> Review BSI Graph feedback:
> As Oliver (Rosten) said "The basic premise is important, and it would be
> fantastic to have support for graphs in the standard."
> 
> The main items identified were:
> Oliver:
> - This paper is long and incomplete, it has lots of details which I think
> to be irrelevant, however things that are definitely relevant are missing
> from the paper - for example definition of graph - since people have
> different ideas. We need to add a mathematical perspective to the paper.
> 
> - The structure of the paper completely changed in the new revision, so now
> it’s hard to understand what and why they have done
> 
> - Another missing part is discussion of graph invariants
> 
> Tom (Deakin): There’s a big missing part in “Prior art” part, GraphBLAS (
> https://graphblas.org <https://graphblas.org/>) eminently.
> 
> Some other things to add:
> 
> 1. The electrical circuit example needs more explanation, and I think this
> will highlight some deep issues around representing things which are
> seemingly trivially graphs, as graphs in practice. In what sense is a
> bog-standard resistor directed? I assume the reason that the graph is
> directed is because current has a sign and in an undirected graph it
> becomes ambiguous which way the current is flowing (also you may want
> components like diodes). But the directed representation also has issues:
> "can current flow from 'Vdd' to 'n0'?" should be immediately answerable
> from the properties of Vdd and its edges. There are other ways to represent
> an electrical circuit. One is as a directed graph but with incident edges
> recorded - but iiuc, this is excluded from the latest version of the paper.
> Alternatively, one could have a mathematical object, the name of which I
> actually don't know: it looks like an undirected graph, but where each
> partial edge has additional, unique, end-point data, as well as the common
> weight. Things like this are the reason why I think we need a broader group
> to look at this proposal (i.e. beyond SG19) and if we possibly can we
> should involve someone from the mathematics community. Otherwise there's a
> real danger we end up missing important insights.
> 
> 2. My comment about the structure of the paper changing was a reference to
> previous comparisons with boost::graph. I'm sure these were in an earlier
> version, or am I misremembering? Either way, it would be very helpful to
> have a proper discussion of e.g. the move away from visitors.
> 
> 3. Re. the definition of a graph, there needs to be a proper discussion
> about whether the paper's definition of graph is what some authors call a
> multigraph and whether it does/does not include loops. These things are
> mentioned, in passing, when introducing algorithms, but terminology needs
> to be properly established.
> 
> 4. I think we're trying to do too much in one go in this paper. I think a
> great first step would be to build on mdspan and try to standardize (or at
> least understand) what might reasonably be called an unstructured span.
> This could be represented as a vector of vectors or as a vector with some
> auxiliary storage indicating where the partitions fall. The point is that
> an unstructured span, with the right invariants, is an adjacency list. If
> we can understand unstructured span and its desirable api, I think this
> will be incredibly valuable guidance for what a standardized graph
> container might look like.
> 
> 5. IIUC, this paper excludes pure connectivity graphs. These are incredibly
> helpful and, if I've understood correctly that they are not supported,
> would be a major omission. Another good reason, imo, to start with
> unstructured span!
> 
> 6. I'm not convinced by the load api. We don't have a load api for vector
> etc. Moreover, would it not be preferable to have appropriate constructors?
> 
> 
> 2.2.1: ML topics
> 
> 2.2.1.1 Graph Proposal Phil Ratsloff et al
> 
> Latest paper:
> 
> Here’s a link to the paper (different than the previous paper reviewed).
> There are some additional updates I’m planning on making before the meeting.
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OpH-xxRri7tJTtJJIZTYmSHkkrZJkdBwm9zJ7LqolfQ/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OpH-xxRri7tJTtJJIZTYmSHkkrZJkdBwm9zJ7LqolfQ/edit?usp=sharing>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P1709R3:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kLHhbSTX7j0tPeTYECQFSNx3R35Mu3xO5_dyYdRy4dM/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kLHhbSTX7j0tPeTYECQFSNx3R35Mu3xO5_dyYdRy4dM/edit?usp=sharing>
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QkfDzGyfNQKs86y053M0YHOLP6frzhTJqzg1Ug_vkkE/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QkfDzGyfNQKs86y053M0YHOLP6frzhTJqzg1Ug_vkkE/edit?usp=sharing>
> 
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2119r0.html <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2119r0.html>>
> 
> <
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/175wIm8o4BNGti0WLq8U6uZORegKVjmnpfc-_E8PoGS0/edit?ts=5fff27cd#heading=h.9ogkehmdmtel <https://docs.google.com/document/d/175wIm8o4BNGti0WLq8U6uZORegKVjmnpfc-_E8PoGS0/edit?ts=5fff27cd#heading=h.9ogkehmdmtel>
> *>*
> 
> Array copy semantics:
> array copy-semantics paper P1997 "Relaxing Restrictions on Arrays",
> https://wg21.link/p1997 <https://wg21.link/p1997>
> 
> Stats feedback:
> 
> P2376R0
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2021/p2376r0.pdf <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2021/p2376r0.pdf>>
> Comments
> on Simple Statistical Functions (p1708r4): Contracts, Exceptions and
> Special cases Johan Lundberg
> 
> 2.2.1.2 Reinforcement Learning Larry Lewis Jorge Silva
> 
> Reinforcement Learning proposal:
> 
> 2.2.1.3 Differential Calculus:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/175wIm8o4BNGti0WLq8U6uZORegKVjmnpfc-_E8PoGS0/edit?ts=5fff27cd#heading=h.9ogkehmdmtel <https://docs.google.com/document/d/175wIm8o4BNGti0WLq8U6uZORegKVjmnpfc-_E8PoGS0/edit?ts=5fff27cd#heading=h.9ogkehmdmtel>
> 
> 2.2.1.4 <http://2.2.1.4>: Stats paper
> 
> P2681R0
> <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2022/p2681r0.pdf <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2022/p2681r0.pdf>> More
> Stats Functions Richard Dosselmann, Michael Wong
> Current github
> 
> https://github.com/cplusplus/papers/issues/475 <https://github.com/cplusplus/papers/issues/475>
> 
> https://github.com/cplusplus/papers/issues/979 <https://github.com/cplusplus/papers/issues/979>
> 
> Stats review Richard Dosselman et al
> 
> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2021/p1708r4.pdf <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2021/p1708r4.pdf>
> 
> Feedback from Johan Lundberg and Oleksandr Korval
> 
> https://isocpp.org/files/papers/D2376R0.pdf <https://isocpp.org/files/papers/D2376R0.pdf>
> 
> P1708R3: Math proposal for Machine Learning: 3rd review
> 
> PXXXX: combinatorics: 1st Review
> 
> *> std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p1708r2 <http://std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p1708r2>
> <http://std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p1708r2 <http://std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p1708r2>>*
> *> above is the stats paper that was reviewed in Prague*
> *> http://wiki.edg.com/bin/view/Wg21prague/P1708R2SG19 <http://wiki.edg.com/bin/view/Wg21prague/P1708R2SG19>
> <http://wiki.edg.com/bin/view/Wg21prague/P1708R2SG19 <http://wiki.edg.com/bin/view/Wg21prague/P1708R2SG19>>*
> *>*
> *> Review Jolanta Polish feedback.*
> *> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2119r0.html <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2119r0.html>
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2119r0.html <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2119r0.html>>*
> 
> 
> 2.2.1.4 <http://2.2.1.4>: Matrix paper
> 
> 2.2.3 any other proposal for reviews?
> 
> 2.3 Other Papers and proposals
> 
> P1416R1: SG19 - Linear Algebra for Data Science and Machine Learning
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IKUNiUhBgRURW-UkspK7fAAyIhfXuMxjk7xKikK4Yp8/edit#heading=h.tj9hitg7dbtr <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IKUNiUhBgRURW-UkspK7fAAyIhfXuMxjk7xKikK4Yp8/edit#heading=h.tj9hitg7dbtr>
> 
> P1415: Machine Learning Layered list
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1elNFdIXWoetbxjO1OKol_Wj8fyi4Z4hogfj5tLVSj64/edit#heading=h.tj9hitg7dbtr <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1elNFdIXWoetbxjO1OKol_Wj8fyi4Z4hogfj5tLVSj64/edit#heading=h.tj9hitg7dbtr>
> 
> 2.2.2 SG14 Linear Algebra progress:
> Different layers of proposal
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1poXfr7mUPovJC9ZQ5SDVM_1Nb6oYAXlK_d0ljdUAtSQ/edit <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1poXfr7mUPovJC9ZQ5SDVM_1Nb6oYAXlK_d0ljdUAtSQ/edit>
> 
> 2.5 Future F2F meetings:
> 
> 2.6 future C++ Standard meetings:
> https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings <https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings>
> 
> None
> 
> 3. Any other business
> 
> New reflector
> 
> http://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg19 <http://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg19>
> 
> Old Reflector
> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/forum/#!newtopic/sg19 <https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/forum/#!newtopic/sg19>
> <https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/forum/?fromgroups=#!forum/sg14 <https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/forum/?fromgroups=#!forum/sg14>>
> 
> Code and proposal Staging area
> 
> 4. Review
> 
> 4.1 Review and approve resolutions and issues [e.g., changes to SG's
> working draft]
> 
> 4.2 Review action items (5 min)
> 
> 5. Closing process
> 
> 5.1 Establish next agenda
> 
> 
> 5.2 Future meeting
> * Jan 9, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled
> * Feb 13, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Hagenberg F2F; Cancelled
> * Mar 13, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Graph
> * Apr 10, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Stats
> * May 8, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Graph
> * June 12, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Sofia F2F, cancelled
> * July 10, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Stats
> * Aug 14, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Graph
> * Sep 11, 2025 02:00 PM ET: CPPCON, cancelled
> * Oct 9, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Stats
> * Nov 13, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Graph
> * Dec 11, 2025 02:00 PM ET: Stats
> 
>