Hi everyone,

I've been lurking on the list for a while and after I read through
Michael's email and had a quick look at P1709R3c, I thought maybe I can
actually contribute something here. I'm the current maintainer of
Boost.Graph, so I have some familiarity with the area. Anyway, that's just
a quick introduction and hello so that you're not surprised by someone
unfamiliar making suggestions in Google Docs, which I might not get around
to for a few days yet.

Cheers.

Jeremy


On Fri, 11 Oct 2024 at 05:02, Michael Wong via SG19 <sg19_at_[hidden]>
wrote:

> Get well. We will miss you. Make sure its not covid.
>
> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 4:26 AM Oliver Rosten via SG19 <
> sg19_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately I've caught a really heavy cold so won't be able to attend
>> either.
>>
>> But I hope to catch up on Phil's latest ideas once I'm better.
>>
>> O.
>>
>> On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 at 09:08, Guy Davidson via SG19 <
>> sg19_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>
>>> I will be in Breda at C++ Under The Sea so I won't be able to attend.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> G
>>>
>>> On Tue, 8 Oct 2024 at 21:11, Michael Wong via SG19 <
>>> sg19_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi, this SG19 meeting will focus on stats and graphs. I know we just
>>>> met 2 weeks ago so there may not be a lot of progress yet,
>>>> in which case this will be just a short recap/planning meeting.
>>>>
>>>> Michael Wong is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
>>>>
>>>> Topic: SG19 monthly
>>>> Time: 2nd Thursdays 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>>> Every month on the Second Thu,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:
>>>>
>>>> https://iso.zoom.us/j/93084591725?pwd=K3QxZjJlcnljaE13ZWU5cTlLNkx0Zz09
>>>> Password: 035530
>>>>
>>>> Or iPhone one-tap :
>>>> US: +13017158592,,93084591725# or +13126266799,,93084591725#
>>>> Or Telephone:
>>>> Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current
>>>> location):
>>>> US: +1 301 715 8592 or +1 312 626 6799 or +1 346 248 7799 or +1
>>>> 408 638 0968 or +1 646 876 9923 or +1 669 900 6833 or +1 253 215 8782
>>>> or 877 853 5247 (Toll Free)
>>>> Meeting ID: 930 8459 1725
>>>> Password: 035530
>>>> International numbers available: https://iso.zoom.us/u/agewu4X97
>>>>
>>>> Or Skype for Business (Lync):
>>>> https://iso.zoom.us/skype/93084591725
>>>>
>>>> Agenda:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Opening and introductions
>>>>
>>>> The ISO Code of conduct:
>>>> https://www.iso.org/files/live/sites/isoorg/files/store/en/PUB100397.pdf
>>>>
>>>> IEC Code of Conduct:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.iec.ch/basecamp/iec-code-conduct-technical-work
>>>>
>>>> ISO patent policy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/2000/2122/3770791/Common_Policy.htm?nodeid=6344764&vernum=-2
>>>>
>>>> The WG21 Practices and Procedures and Code of Conduct:
>>>>
>>>> https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-4-wg21-practices-and-procedures
>>>>
>>>> 1.1 Roll call of participants
>>>>
>>>> 1.2 Adopt agenda
>>>>
>>>> 1.3 Approve minutes from previous meeting, and approve publishing
>>>> previously approved minutes to ISOCPP.org
>>>>
>>>> 1.4 Action items from previous meetings
>>>>
>>>> 2. Main issues (125 min)
>>>>
>>>> 2.1 General logistics
>>>>
>>>> Meeting plan, focus on one paper per meeting but does not preclude other
>>>> paper
>>>> updates.
>>>>
>>>> 2024 planning
>>>> C++23 and C++26 status
>>>> CPPCON 2024
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> * Jan 11, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph DONE
>>>> * Feb 8, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph DONE
>>>> * Mar 14, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled due to Tokyo 3-18-23
>>>> * Apr 11, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Stats/Graph DONE
>>>> * May 9, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph DONE
>>>> * June 13, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph; St.louis 6-24-29 DONE
>>>> * July 11, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Stats/ Graphs DONE
>>>> * Aug 15, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph DONE
>>>> * Sep 12, 2024 02:00 PM ET: CPPCON Sept 15-20 so canceled DONE
>>>> * Oct 10, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Stats
>>>> * Nov 14, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled Wroclaw F2F
>>>> * Dec 12, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ISO meeting status
>>>>
>>>> future C++ Std meetings
>>>>
>>>> 2.2 Paper reviews
>>>> Review BSI Graph feedback:
>>>> As Oliver (Rosten) said "The basic premise is important, and it would be
>>>> fantastic to have support for graphs in the standard."
>>>>
>>>> The main items identified were:
>>>> Oliver:
>>>> - This paper is long and incomplete, it has lots of details which I
>>>> think
>>>> to be irrelevant, however things that are definitely relevant are
>>>> missing
>>>> from the paper - for example definition of graph - since people have
>>>> different ideas. We need to add a mathematical perspective to the paper.
>>>>
>>>> - The structure of the paper completely changed in the new revision, so
>>>> now
>>>> it’s hard to understand what and why they have done
>>>>
>>>> - Another missing part is discussion of graph invariants
>>>>
>>>> Tom (Deakin): There’s a big missing part in “Prior art” part, GraphBLAS
>>>> (
>>>> https://graphblas.org) eminently.
>>>>
>>>> Some other things to add:
>>>>
>>>> 1. The electrical circuit example needs more explanation, and I think
>>>> this
>>>> will highlight some deep issues around representing things which are
>>>> seemingly trivially graphs, as graphs in practice. In what sense is a
>>>> bog-standard resistor directed? I assume the reason that the graph is
>>>> directed is because current has a sign and in an undirected graph it
>>>> becomes ambiguous which way the current is flowing (also you may want
>>>> components like diodes). But the directed representation also has
>>>> issues:
>>>> "can current flow from 'Vdd' to 'n0'?" should be immediately answerable
>>>> from the properties of Vdd and its edges. There are other ways to
>>>> represent
>>>> an electrical circuit. One is as a directed graph but with incident
>>>> edges
>>>> recorded - but iiuc, this is excluded from the latest version of the
>>>> paper.
>>>> Alternatively, one could have a mathematical object, the name of which I
>>>> actually don't know: it looks like an undirected graph, but where each
>>>> partial edge has additional, unique, end-point data, as well as the
>>>> common
>>>> weight. Things like this are the reason why I think we need a broader
>>>> group
>>>> to look at this proposal (i.e. beyond SG19) and if we possibly can we
>>>> should involve someone from the mathematics community. Otherwise
>>>> there's a
>>>> real danger we end up missing important insights.
>>>>
>>>> 2. My comment about the structure of the paper changing was a reference
>>>> to
>>>> previous comparisons with boost::graph. I'm sure these were in an
>>>> earlier
>>>> version, or am I misremembering? Either way, it would be very helpful to
>>>> have a proper discussion of e.g. the move away from visitors.
>>>>
>>>> 3. Re. the definition of a graph, there needs to be a proper discussion
>>>> about whether the paper's definition of graph is what some authors call
>>>> a
>>>> multigraph and whether it does/does not include loops. These things are
>>>> mentioned, in passing, when introducing algorithms, but terminology
>>>> needs
>>>> to be properly established.
>>>>
>>>> 4. I think we're trying to do too much in one go in this paper. I think
>>>> a
>>>> great first step would be to build on mdspan and try to standardize (or
>>>> at
>>>> least understand) what might reasonably be called an unstructured span.
>>>> This could be represented as a vector of vectors or as a vector with
>>>> some
>>>> auxiliary storage indicating where the partitions fall. The point is
>>>> that
>>>> an unstructured span, with the right invariants, is an adjacency list.
>>>> If
>>>> we can understand unstructured span and its desirable api, I think this
>>>> will be incredibly valuable guidance for what a standardized graph
>>>> container might look like.
>>>>
>>>> 5. IIUC, this paper excludes pure connectivity graphs. These are
>>>> incredibly
>>>> helpful and, if I've understood correctly that they are not supported,
>>>> would be a major omission. Another good reason, imo, to start with
>>>> unstructured span!
>>>>
>>>> 6. I'm not convinced by the load api. We don't have a load api for
>>>> vector
>>>> etc. Moreover, would it not be preferable to have appropriate
>>>> constructors?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2.2.1: ML topics
>>>>
>>>> 2.2.1.1 Graph Proposal Phil Ratsloff et al
>>>>
>>>> Latest paper:
>>>>
>>>> Here’s a link to the paper (different than the previous paper reviewed).
>>>> There are some additional updates I’m planning on making before the
>>>> meeting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OpH-xxRri7tJTtJJIZTYmSHkkrZJkdBwm9zJ7LqolfQ/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> P1709R3:
>>>>
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kLHhbSTX7j0tPeTYECQFSNx3R35Mu3xO5_dyYdRy4dM/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QkfDzGyfNQKs86y053M0YHOLP6frzhTJqzg1Ug_vkkE/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2119r0.html>
>>>>
>>>> <
>>>>
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/175wIm8o4BNGti0WLq8U6uZORegKVjmnpfc-_E8PoGS0/edit?ts=5fff27cd#heading=h.9ogkehmdmtel
>>>> *>*
>>>>
>>>> Array copy semantics:
>>>> array copy-semantics paper P1997 "Relaxing Restrictions on Arrays",
>>>> https://wg21.link/p1997
>>>>
>>>> Stats feedback:
>>>>
>>>> P2376R0
>>>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2021/p2376r0.pdf>
>>>> Comments
>>>> on Simple Statistical Functions (p1708r4): Contracts, Exceptions and
>>>> Special cases Johan Lundberg
>>>>
>>>> 2.2.1.2 Reinforcement Learning Larry Lewis Jorge Silva
>>>>
>>>> Reinforcement Learning proposal:
>>>>
>>>> 2.2.1.3 Differential Calculus:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/175wIm8o4BNGti0WLq8U6uZORegKVjmnpfc-_E8PoGS0/edit?ts=5fff27cd#heading=h.9ogkehmdmtel
>>>>
>>>> 2.2.1.4: Stats paper
>>>>
>>>> P2681R0
>>>> <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2022/p2681r0.pdf>
>>>> More
>>>> Stats Functions Richard Dosselmann, Michael Wong
>>>> Current github
>>>>
>>>> https://github.com/cplusplus/papers/issues/475
>>>>
>>>> https://github.com/cplusplus/papers/issues/979
>>>>
>>>> Stats review Richard Dosselman et al
>>>>
>>>> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2021/p1708r4.pdf
>>>>
>>>> Feedback from Johan Lundberg and Oleksandr Korval
>>>>
>>>> https://isocpp.org/files/papers/D2376R0.pdf
>>>>
>>>> P1708R3: Math proposal for Machine Learning: 3rd review
>>>>
>>>> PXXXX: combinatorics: 1st Review
>>>>
>>>> *> std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p1708r2
>>>> <http://std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p1708r2>*
>>>> *> above is the stats paper that was reviewed in Prague*
>>>> *> http://wiki.edg.com/bin/view/Wg21prague/P1708R2SG19
>>>> <http://wiki.edg.com/bin/view/Wg21prague/P1708R2SG19>*
>>>> *>*
>>>> *> Review Jolanta Polish feedback.*
>>>> *> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2119r0.html
>>>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2119r0.html>*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2.2.1.4: Matrix paper
>>>>
>>>> 2.2.3 any other proposal for reviews?
>>>>
>>>> 2.3 Other Papers and proposals
>>>>
>>>> P1416R1: SG19 - Linear Algebra for Data Science and Machine Learning
>>>>
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IKUNiUhBgRURW-UkspK7fAAyIhfXuMxjk7xKikK4Yp8/edit#heading=h.tj9hitg7dbtr
>>>>
>>>> P1415: Machine Learning Layered list
>>>>
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1elNFdIXWoetbxjO1OKol_Wj8fyi4Z4hogfj5tLVSj64/edit#heading=h.tj9hitg7dbtr
>>>>
>>>> 2.2.2 SG14 Linear Algebra progress:
>>>> Different layers of proposal
>>>>
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1poXfr7mUPovJC9ZQ5SDVM_1Nb6oYAXlK_d0ljdUAtSQ/edit
>>>>
>>>> 2.5 Future F2F meetings:
>>>>
>>>> 2.6 future C++ Standard meetings:
>>>> https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings
>>>>
>>>> None
>>>>
>>>> 3. Any other business
>>>>
>>>> New reflector
>>>>
>>>> http://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg19
>>>>
>>>> Old Reflector
>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/forum/#!newtopic/sg19
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/forum/?fromgroups=#!forum/sg14>
>>>>
>>>> Code and proposal Staging area
>>>>
>>>> 4. Review
>>>>
>>>> 4.1 Review and approve resolutions and issues [e.g., changes to SG's
>>>> working draft]
>>>>
>>>> 4.2 Review action items (5 min)
>>>>
>>>> 5. Closing process
>>>>
>>>> 5.1 Establish next agenda
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 5.2 Future meeting
>>>> * Jan 11, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph DONE
>>>> * Feb 8, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph DONE
>>>> * Mar 14, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled due to Tokyo 3-18-23
>>>> * Apr 11, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Stats/Graph DONE
>>>> * May 9, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph DONE
>>>> * June 13, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph; St.louis 6-24-29 DONE
>>>> * July 11, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Stats
>>>> * Aug 15, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph
>>>> * Sep 12, 2024 02:00 PM ET: CPPCON Sept 15-20 so cancelled
>>>> * Oct 10, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Stats
>>>> * Nov 14, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled Wroclaw F2F
>>>> * Dec 12, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph
>>>> --
>>>> SG19 mailing list
>>>> SG19_at_[hidden]
>>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg19
>>>>
>>> --
>>> SG19 mailing list
>>> SG19_at_[hidden]
>>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg19
>>>
>> --
>> SG19 mailing list
>> SG19_at_[hidden]
>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg19
>>
> --
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>