Hi Oliver, thank you for staying with us during Covid. Understood, Get well
soon.

I received various replies from a few people and it seems we can meet at
3:15 ET instead of 2 pm ET (this will alllow Andrew, and Richard to join)
mostly to talk about Richards's Stats updates and how to get consensus. If
that is OK, I will still hold a meeting to start at 3:15 ET. Cheers.

On Wed, Jul 10, 2024 at 3:33 AM Oliver Rosten <oliver.rosten_at_[hidden]>
wrote:

> I'm still not fully recovered from the latest covid variant, so will be
> skipping this one.
>
> O.
>
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 at 23:22, Michael Wong via SG19 <sg19_at_[hidden]>
> wrote:
>
>> I am also happy to cancel the meeting if we don't have enough progress
>> report. Cheers.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 6:19 PM Michael Wong <fraggamuffin_at_[hidden]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, this SG19 meeting will focus on Graph and stats
>>> I know we just met 2 weeks ago so there may not be a lot of progress
>>> yet, in which case this will be just a short recap/planning meeting.
>>>
>>> Michael Wong is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
>>>
>>> Topic: SG19 monthly
>>> Time: 2nd Thursdays 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
>>> Every month on the Second Thu,
>>>
>>>
>>> Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:
>>>
>>> https://iso.zoom.us/j/93084591725?pwd=K3QxZjJlcnljaE13ZWU5cTlLNkx0Zz09
>>> Password: 035530
>>>
>>> Or iPhone one-tap :
>>> US: +13017158592,,93084591725# or +13126266799,,93084591725#
>>> Or Telephone:
>>> Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current
>>> location):
>>> US: +1 301 715 8592 or +1 312 626 6799 or +1 346 248 7799 or +1
>>> 408 638 0968 or +1 646 876 9923 or +1 669 900 6833 or +1 253 215 8782
>>> or 877 853 5247 (Toll Free)
>>> Meeting ID: 930 8459 1725
>>> Password: 035530
>>> International numbers available: https://iso.zoom.us/u/agewu4X97
>>>
>>> Or Skype for Business (Lync):
>>> https://iso.zoom.us/skype/93084591725
>>>
>>> Agenda:
>>>
>>> 1. Opening and introductions
>>>
>>> The ISO Code of conduct:
>>> https://www.iso.org/files/live/sites/isoorg/files/store/en/PUB100397.pdf
>>>
>>> IEC Code of Conduct:
>>>
>>> https://www.iec.ch/basecamp/iec-code-conduct-technical-work
>>>
>>> ISO patent policy.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/2000/2122/3770791/Common_Policy.htm?nodeid=6344764&vernum=-2
>>>
>>> The WG21 Practices and Procedures and Code of Conduct:
>>>
>>> https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-4-wg21-practices-and-procedures
>>>
>>> 1.1 Roll call of participants
>>>
>>> 1.2 Adopt agenda
>>>
>>> 1.3 Approve minutes from previous meeting, and approve publishing
>>> previously approved minutes to ISOCPP.org
>>>
>>> 1.4 Action items from previous meetings
>>>
>>> 2. Main issues (125 min)
>>>
>>> 2.1 General logistics
>>>
>>> Meeting plan, focus on one paper per meeting but does not preclude other
>>> paper
>>> updates.
>>>
>>> 2024 planning
>>> C++23 and C++26 status
>>> CPPCON 2024
>>>
>>>
>>> * Jan 11, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph DONE
>>> * Feb 8, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph DONE
>>> * Mar 14, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled due to Tokyo 3-18-23
>>> * Apr 11, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Stats/Graph DONE
>>> * May 9, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph DONE
>>> * June 13, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph; St.louis 6-24-29 DONE
>>> * July 11, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Stats/ Graphs
>>> * Aug 15, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph
>>> * Sep 12, 2024 02:00 PM ET: CPPCON Sept 15-20 so canceled
>>> * Oct 10, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Stats
>>> * Nov 14, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled Wroclaw F2F
>>> * Dec 12, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph
>>>
>>>
>>> ISO meeting status
>>>
>>> future C++ Std meetings
>>>
>>> 2.2 Paper reviews
>>> Review BSI Graph feedback:
>>> As Oliver (Rosten) said "The basic premise is important, and it would be
>>> fantastic to have support for graphs in the standard."
>>>
>>> The main items identified were:
>>> Oliver:
>>> - This paper is long and incomplete, it has lots of details which I think
>>> to be irrelevant, however things that are definitely relevant are missing
>>> from the paper - for example definition of graph - since people have
>>> different ideas. We need to add a mathematical perspective to the paper.
>>>
>>> - The structure of the paper completely changed in the new revision, so
>>> now
>>> it’s hard to understand what and why they have done
>>>
>>> - Another missing part is discussion of graph invariants
>>>
>>> Tom (Deakin): There’s a big missing part in “Prior art” part, GraphBLAS (
>>> https://graphblas.org) eminently.
>>>
>>> Some other things to add:
>>>
>>> 1. The electrical circuit example needs more explanation, and I think
>>> this
>>> will highlight some deep issues around representing things which are
>>> seemingly trivially graphs, as graphs in practice. In what sense is a
>>> bog-standard resistor directed? I assume the reason that the graph is
>>> directed is because current has a sign and in an undirected graph it
>>> becomes ambiguous which way the current is flowing (also you may want
>>> components like diodes). But the directed representation also has issues:
>>> "can current flow from 'Vdd' to 'n0'?" should be immediately answerable
>>> from the properties of Vdd and its edges. There are other ways to
>>> represent
>>> an electrical circuit. One is as a directed graph but with incident edges
>>> recorded - but iiuc, this is excluded from the latest version of the
>>> paper.
>>> Alternatively, one could have a mathematical object, the name of which I
>>> actually don't know: it looks like an undirected graph, but where each
>>> partial edge has additional, unique, end-point data, as well as the
>>> common
>>> weight. Things like this are the reason why I think we need a broader
>>> group
>>> to look at this proposal (i.e. beyond SG19) and if we possibly can we
>>> should involve someone from the mathematics community. Otherwise there's
>>> a
>>> real danger we end up missing important insights.
>>>
>>> 2. My comment about the structure of the paper changing was a reference
>>> to
>>> previous comparisons with boost::graph. I'm sure these were in an earlier
>>> version, or am I misremembering? Either way, it would be very helpful to
>>> have a proper discussion of e.g. the move away from visitors.
>>>
>>> 3. Re. the definition of a graph, there needs to be a proper discussion
>>> about whether the paper's definition of graph is what some authors call a
>>> multigraph and whether it does/does not include loops. These things are
>>> mentioned, in passing, when introducing algorithms, but terminology needs
>>> to be properly established.
>>>
>>> 4. I think we're trying to do too much in one go in this paper. I think a
>>> great first step would be to build on mdspan and try to standardize (or
>>> at
>>> least understand) what might reasonably be called an unstructured span.
>>> This could be represented as a vector of vectors or as a vector with some
>>> auxiliary storage indicating where the partitions fall. The point is that
>>> an unstructured span, with the right invariants, is an adjacency list. If
>>> we can understand unstructured span and its desirable api, I think this
>>> will be incredibly valuable guidance for what a standardized graph
>>> container might look like.
>>>
>>> 5. IIUC, this paper excludes pure connectivity graphs. These are
>>> incredibly
>>> helpful and, if I've understood correctly that they are not supported,
>>> would be a major omission. Another good reason, imo, to start with
>>> unstructured span!
>>>
>>> 6. I'm not convinced by the load api. We don't have a load api for vector
>>> etc. Moreover, would it not be preferable to have appropriate
>>> constructors?
>>>
>>>
>>> 2.2.1: ML topics
>>>
>>> 2.2.1.1 Graph Proposal Phil Ratsloff et al
>>>
>>> Latest paper:
>>>
>>> Here’s a link to the paper (different than the previous paper reviewed).
>>> There are some additional updates I’m planning on making before the
>>> meeting.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OpH-xxRri7tJTtJJIZTYmSHkkrZJkdBwm9zJ7LqolfQ/edit?usp=sharing
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> P1709R3:
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kLHhbSTX7j0tPeTYECQFSNx3R35Mu3xO5_dyYdRy4dM/edit?usp=sharing
>>>
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QkfDzGyfNQKs86y053M0YHOLP6frzhTJqzg1Ug_vkkE/edit?usp=sharing
>>>
>>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2119r0.html>
>>>
>>> <
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/175wIm8o4BNGti0WLq8U6uZORegKVjmnpfc-_E8PoGS0/edit?ts=5fff27cd#heading=h.9ogkehmdmtel
>>> *>*
>>>
>>> Array copy semantics:
>>> array copy-semantics paper P1997 "Relaxing Restrictions on Arrays",
>>> https://wg21.link/p1997
>>>
>>> Stats feedback:
>>>
>>> P2376R0
>>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2021/p2376r0.pdf>
>>> Comments
>>> on Simple Statistical Functions (p1708r4): Contracts, Exceptions and
>>> Special cases Johan Lundberg
>>>
>>> 2.2.1.2 Reinforcement Learning Larry Lewis Jorge Silva
>>>
>>> Reinforcement Learning proposal:
>>>
>>> 2.2.1.3 Differential Calculus:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/175wIm8o4BNGti0WLq8U6uZORegKVjmnpfc-_E8PoGS0/edit?ts=5fff27cd#heading=h.9ogkehmdmtel
>>>
>>> 2.2.1.4: Stats paper
>>>
>>> P2681R0
>>> <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2022/p2681r0.pdf>
>>> More
>>> Stats Functions Richard Dosselmann, Michael Wong
>>> Current github
>>>
>>> https://github.com/cplusplus/papers/issues/475
>>>
>>> https://github.com/cplusplus/papers/issues/979
>>>
>>> Stats review Richard Dosselman et al
>>>
>>> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2021/p1708r4.pdf
>>>
>>> Feedback from Johan Lundberg and Oleksandr Korval
>>>
>>> https://isocpp.org/files/papers/D2376R0.pdf
>>>
>>> P1708R3: Math proposal for Machine Learning: 3rd review
>>>
>>> PXXXX: combinatorics: 1st Review
>>>
>>> *> std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p1708r2
>>> <http://std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p1708r2>*
>>> *> above is the stats paper that was reviewed in Prague*
>>> *> http://wiki.edg.com/bin/view/Wg21prague/P1708R2SG19
>>> <http://wiki.edg.com/bin/view/Wg21prague/P1708R2SG19>*
>>> *>*
>>> *> Review Jolanta Polish feedback.*
>>> *> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2119r0.html
>>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2119r0.html>*
>>>
>>>
>>> 2.2.1.4: Matrix paper
>>>
>>> 2.2.3 any other proposal for reviews?
>>>
>>> 2.3 Other Papers and proposals
>>>
>>> P1416R1: SG19 - Linear Algebra for Data Science and Machine Learning
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IKUNiUhBgRURW-UkspK7fAAyIhfXuMxjk7xKikK4Yp8/edit#heading=h.tj9hitg7dbtr
>>>
>>> P1415: Machine Learning Layered list
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1elNFdIXWoetbxjO1OKol_Wj8fyi4Z4hogfj5tLVSj64/edit#heading=h.tj9hitg7dbtr
>>>
>>> 2.2.2 SG14 Linear Algebra progress:
>>> Different layers of proposal
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1poXfr7mUPovJC9ZQ5SDVM_1Nb6oYAXlK_d0ljdUAtSQ/edit
>>>
>>> 2.5 Future F2F meetings:
>>>
>>> 2.6 future C++ Standard meetings:
>>> https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings
>>>
>>> None
>>>
>>> 3. Any other business
>>>
>>> New reflector
>>>
>>> http://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg19
>>>
>>> Old Reflector
>>> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/forum/#!newtopic/sg19
>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/forum/?fromgroups=#!forum/sg14>
>>>
>>> Code and proposal Staging area
>>>
>>> 4. Review
>>>
>>> 4.1 Review and approve resolutions and issues [e.g., changes to SG's
>>> working draft]
>>>
>>> 4.2 Review action items (5 min)
>>>
>>> 5. Closing process
>>>
>>> 5.1 Establish next agenda
>>>
>>>
>>> 5.2 Future meeting
>>> * Jan 11, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph DONE
>>> * Feb 8, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph DONE
>>> * Mar 14, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled due to Tokyo 3-18-23
>>> * Apr 11, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Stats/Graph DONE
>>> * May 9, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph DONE
>>> * June 13, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph; St.louis 6-24-29 DONE
>>> * July 11, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Stats
>>> * Aug 15, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph
>>> * Sep 12, 2024 02:00 PM ET: CPPCON Sept 15-20 so cancelled
>>> * Oct 10, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Stats
>>> * Nov 14, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled Wroclaw F2F
>>> * Dec 12, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph
>>>
>> --
>> SG19 mailing list
>> SG19_at_[hidden]
>> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg19
>>
>