On 11/29/22 5:32 PM, Corentin Jabot wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 11:13 PM Tom Honermann via SG16
> <sg16_at_[hidden]> wrote:
>
> Corentin, I'm having a hard time understanding what the
> screenshots included in P2675R0 are showing. The paper doesn't
> explain (or I missed it) what was done to produce those
> screenshots. I can't tell what code points the displayed glyphs
> correspond to. The set of characters displayed seems to differ;
> the number of rows displayed is not consistent. It doesn't seem to
> be possible to dive into the data to determine which characters
> are being rendered differently. Basically, I'm unable to evaluate
> whether the screenshots support the proposal.
>
> It would also be helpful if the screenshots included information
> about the terminal encoding (almost always UTF-8 I would
> guess/hope) and the font(s) used. I recognize gathering such data
> could be challenging.
>
>
> Well, given the first collection took many days and involved a large
> number of people, that may prove challenging.
> I did intend to have the characters separated by |, but by the time I
> realized that it was too late.
> Knowing the fonts used would be even more challenging as in the
> absence of a codepoint renderers will try to find some other similar font.
> For east asian characters, they will be aligned no matter the font,
> for emoji they may or may not be rendered on the grid.
>
> The paper contains a script that was used to generate the list of
> codepoint rendered.
> I intended to include that list however it proved difficult to handle
> for google docs, and apparently subsequentely forgot to put a reference
> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/cor3ntin/e5731f77574b146d806e39283e8c7cb7/raw/01d760e7fbb6a56c637a3ce34688e1da286df287/full_width.hpp
> Feel free to try on your system.
>
> The TL;DR is that on a conforming system with sufficient fonts - which
> is not all systems, in part because Unicode 15 is recent and not all
> terminals display wide tofu properly - what is proposed is coherent
> with existing terminal behaviors. And we should not try to
> placate over temporary deficiency of one specific terminal over another.

Thanks, could you please add that kind of description to the next
revision of the paper? Not for tomorrow obviously.

Having taken a look at the gist linked above, I have to conclude that
the screenshots currently in the paper are not beneficial. Some
screenshots show rows from the top of the gist and others from the
bottom, but I can only tell that by guessing based on glyph shape and
being locally able to look at the entire gist.

Having a large number of screenshots is not important to me. I would be
happy to have examples for just the following. But I would like
screenshots that provide an apples-to-apples comparison and that show
the entire gist.

  * Linux with Konsole.
  * Linux with gnome-terminal.
  * Linux with non-graphical terminal.
  * Windows with cmd.exe.
  * Windows with Windows Terminal.
  * Windows with Putty.
  * macOS with its default terminal.

Tom.

>
> Tom.
>
> On 11/29/22 3:40 PM, Tom Honermann via SG16 wrote:
>>
>> SG16 will hold a telecon on Wednesday, November 30th, at 19:30
>> UTC (timezone conversion
>> <https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html?iso=20221130T193000&p1=1440&p2=tz_pst&p3=tz_mst&p4=tz_cst&p5=tz_est&p6=tz_cet>).
>>
>> *This message will also serve as your friendly reminder that this
>> meeting is taking place tomorrow. **I'm sorry for publishing an
>> agenda so very late. *
>>
>> *For participants in the USA, please note that daylight savings
>> time ended 2022-11-06, so this telecon will start one hour
>> earlier than our last telecon.*
>>
>> The agenda follows. We won't get through all of these. These are
>> all of the NB comments we have left to address. Whatever we don't
>> get to in this meeting will be scheduled for the December 14th
>> meeting.
>>
>> * P2713R0: Escaping improvements in std::format
>> <https://wg21.link/p2713r0>
>> o US 38-098 22.14.6.4p1 [format.string.escaped] Escaping
>> for debugging and logging
>> <https://github.com/cplusplus/nbballot/issues/515>
>> o FR 005-134 22.14.6.4 [format.string.escaped] Aggressive
>> escaping <https://github.com/cplusplus/nbballot/issues/408>
>> * P2693R0: Formatting thread::id and stacktrace
>> <https://wg21.link/p2693r0>
>> o FR-008-011 22.14 [format] Support formatting of
>> thread::id <https://github.com/cplusplus/nbballot/issues/410>
>> * FR-010-133 [Bibliography] Unify references to Unicode
>> <https://github.com/cplusplus/nbballot/issues/412> and
>> FR-021-013 5.3p5.2 [lex.charset] Codepoint names in
>> identifiers <https://github.com/cplusplus/nbballot/issues/423>
>> * P2675R0: LWG3780: The Paper (format's width estimation is too
>> approximate and not forward compatible)
>> <https://wg21.link/p2675r0>
>> o LWG #3780: format's width estimation is too approximate
>> and not forward compatible
>> <https://cplusplus.github.io/LWG/issue3780>
>> o FR-007-012 22.14.2.2 [format.string.std] codepoints with
>> width 2 <https://github.com/cplusplus/nbballot/issues/409>
>> * FR-020-014 5.3 [lex.charset] Replace "translation character
>> set" by "Unicode"
>> <https://github.com/cplusplus/nbballot/issues/422>
>>
>> P2713R0 <https://wg21.link/p2713r0> (Escaping improvements in
>> std::format) implements the SG16 proposed resolutions for US
>> 38-098 <https://github.com/cplusplus/nbballot/issues/515> (see
>> the 2022-10-19 SG16 meeting summary
>> <https://github.com/sg16-unicode/sg16-meetings#october-19th-2022>)
>> and FR 005-134 <https://github.com/cplusplus/nbballot/issues/408>
>> (see the 2022-11-02 SG16 meeting summary
>> <https://github.com/sg16-unicode/sg16-meetings#november-2nd-2022>).
>> We'll review the wording and then poll forwarding to LEWG as the
>> resolution of the two NB comments.
>>
>> Candidate Poll 1: P2713R0: Forward to LEWG as the recommended
>> resolution of US 38-098 and FR 005-134 [amended to ...].
>>
>> P2693R0 <https://wg21.link/p2693r0> (Formatting thread::id and
>> stacktrace) is intended to resolve FR-008-011
>> <https://github.com/cplusplus/nbballot/issues/410>. I did not
>> initially tag this NB comment as needing SG16 review, but Bryce
>> requested that SG16 take a look, specifically with regard to
>> narrow vs wide formatting. Bryce has indicated this paper will
>> need to be approved soon in order for it to appear in the
>> electronic polling that will be conducted in January.
>>
>> Candidate Poll 2: P2693R0: Forward to LEWG as the recommended
>> resolution of FR-008-011 [amended to ...].
>>
>> FR-010-133 <https://github.com/cplusplus/nbballot/issues/412> and
>> FR-021-013 <https://github.com/cplusplus/nbballot/issues/423>
>> were discussed during the 2022-11-02 SG16 meeting
>> <https://github.com/sg16-unicode/sg16-meetings#november-2nd-2022>
>> and concluded with a recommendation to discuss with the project
>> editor the possibility of preferring the Unicode Standard over
>> ISO/IEC 10646 within the C++ standard. The project editor
>> approved this direction and we can now move forward with drafting
>> wording changes. This will require a paper produced in short
>> order if it is to be accepted for C++23.
>>
>> P2675R0 <https://wg21.link/p2675r0> (LWG3780: The Paper (format's
>> width estimation is too approximate and not forward compatible))
>> is intended to resolve LWG #3780
>> <https://cplusplus.github.io/LWG/issue3780> and FR-007-012
>> <https://github.com/cplusplus/nbballot/issues/409>. It seeks to
>> replace the explicit list of code point ranges in
>> [format.string.std]p12
>> <https://eel.is/c++draft/format.string.std#12> with wording that
>> derives substantially the same set of code points using Unicode
>> database properties.
>>
>> Candidate Poll 3.1: P2675R0: Forward to LEWG as the
>> recommended resolution of FR-007-012 [amended to ...].
>> Candidate Poll 3.2: P2675R0: Forward to LEWG for C++26
>> [amended to ...].
>> Candidate Poll 3.3: Recommend to LEWG that FR-007-012 be
>> rejected.
>>
>> FR-020-014 <https://github.com/cplusplus/nbballot/issues/422>
>> raises concerns that were discussed as part of the reviews of
>> P2314 <https://wg21.link/p2314> and P2297
>> <https://wg21.link/p2297> during the 2021-03-24 SG16 meeting
>> <https://github.com/sg16-unicode/sg16-meetings/blob/master/README-2021.md#march-24th-2021>.
>> The comment does not appear to present new information. If we
>> choose to accept, a paper will need to be quickly produced.
>>
>> Candidate poll 4.1: Recommend to CWG that FR-020-014 be accepted.
>> Candidate poll 4.2: Recommend to CWG that FR-020-014 be rejected.
>>
>> Tom.
>>
>>
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