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Subject: Re: Agenda for the 2021-04-28 SG16 telecon
From: Corentin Jabot (corentinjabot_at_[hidden])
Date: 2021-04-26 12:04:01


On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 6:19 PM Tom Honermann via SG16 <
sg16_at_[hidden]> wrote:

> On 4/19/21 10:58 AM, Tom Honermann via SG16 wrote:
>
> SG16 will hold a telecon on Wednesday, April 28th at 19:30 UTC (timezone
> conversion
> <https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html?iso=20210428T193000&p1=1440&p2=tz_pdt&p3=tz_mdt&p4=tz_cdt&p5=tz_edt&p6=tz_cest>
> ).
>
> The agenda is:
>
> - P2093R5: Formatted output <https://wg21.link/p2093r5>
> - P2348R0: Whitespaces Wording Revamp
> <https://isocpp.org/files/papers/P2348R0.pdf>
>
> LEWG discussed P2093R5 at their 2021-04-06 telecon and decided to refer
> the paper back to SG16 for further discussion. LEWG meeting minutes are
> available here
> <https://wiki.edg.com/bin/view/Wg21telecons2021/P2093#Library-Evolution-2021-04-06>;
> please review them prior to the telecon. LEWG reviewed the list of prior
> SG16 deferred questions posted to them here
> <http://lists.isocpp.org/lib-ext/2021/03/18189.php>. Of those, they
> established consensus on an answer for #2 (they agreed not to block
> std::print() on a proposal for underlying terminal facilities), but
> referred the rest back to us. My interpretation of their actions is that
> LEWG would like a revision of the paper to address these concerns based on
> SG16 input (e.g., discuss design options and SG16 consensus or lack
> thereof). We'll therefore focus on these questions at this telecon.
>
> Hubert provided the following very interesting example usage.
>
> std::print("{:%r}\n", std::chrono::system_clock::now().time_since_epoch());
>
> At issue is the encoding used by locale sensitive chrono formatters.
> Search [time.format] <http://eel.is/c++draft/time.format> for "locale" to
> find example chrono format specifiers that are locale dependent. The
> example above contains the %r specifier and is locale sensitive because
> AM/PM designations may be localized. In a Chinese locale the desired
> translation of "PM" is "下午", but the locale will provide the translation in
> the locale encoding. As specified in P2093R5, if the execution (literal)
> encoding is UTF-8, than std::print() will expect the translation to be
> provided in UTF-8, but if the locale is not UTF-8-based (e.g., Big5;
> perhaps Shift-JIS for the Japanese 午後 translation), then the result is
> mojibake. This is a good example of how locale conflates translation and
> character encoding.
>
> Addressing the above will be our first order of business. Please reserve
> some time to independently think about this problem (ignore responses to
> this message for a few days if you need to). I am explicitly not listing
> possible approaches to address this concern in this message so as to avoid
> adding (further) bias in any specific direction. I suspect the answers to
> the previously deferred SG16 questions will be easier to answer once this
> concern is resolved.
>
> Now that we've all had some time to think about this issue, here are some
> possible directions we can pursue to resolve it. These are presented in no
> particular order.
>
> - Specialize std::locale facets
> <https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/locale/locale> and related I/O
> manipulators like std::put_time()
> <https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/io/manip/put_time> for char8_t.
> This would allow std::print() to, when the literal encoding is UTF-8,
> opt-in to use of the UTF-8/char8_t facets and I/O manipulators.
> - When the literal encoding is UTF-8, stipulate that running the
> program in a non-UTF-8 based locale is non-conforming. This would
> effectively require MSVC programmers to, when building code with the
> /utf-8 option, to also force selection of a UTF-8 code page via a
> manifest
> <https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/design/globalizing/use-utf8-code-page>
> and require use of Windows 10 build 1903 or later.
> - When the literal encoding is UTF-8, specify that non-UTF-8 based
> locale dependent translations be implicitly transcoded (such transcoding
> should never result in errors except perhaps for memory allocation
> failures).
> - Drop the special case handling for the literal encoding being UTF-8
> and specify that, when bypassing a stream to write directly to the console,
> that the output be implicitly transcoded from the current locale dependent
> encoding (whatever it is) to the console encoding (UTF-8).
>
>
We have 2 things to explain to LEWG for print. And we do not need to
operate change to the design, just to explain things to them in a terms
they can understand (and they want to rely on our expertise which
implies consensus among ourselves)

1. It is always non-sense to interpret a string in encoding X when it is in
fact not.
2. From there, if a string literal is in UTF-8, we HAVE to assume the
execution encoding is also utf-8. Why rely on the literal encoding and not
execution? it is resilient to call to setlocale and more efficient. Also,
format strings are likely to be literals.
3. From there if that string is displayed on a terminal/console/screen/tty,
it is text. So it has to be rendered correctly. On a specific system
(windows) there is a way to enforce that. Because windows has a separate
mechanism for unicode display and console handling that exists
independently of the C++ execution encoding.
4. "we have to assume" in 2. implies a precondition. That is true
REGARDLESS of utf-8 or not. in all cases the format string has to be
interpreted as text, which assumes it is valid in the execution encoding.
CF the Microsoft STL issue for braces in shift JS.
5. This means that converting to UTF-16 on windows for the purpose of
console display is always valid (no ""transcosding"" error) within the
contract of the function, and as such does not have to be specified.
Preconditions violations are UB within the standard library and we should
keep doing that. In practice the implementation (which is here the
terminal, not the stl) will do character replacement the best it can, or
render something horrible.

The locale in there is a red herring. Changing the execution encoding is
always dicey - all strings that were correctly interpreted correctly
before the locale change are potentially no longer
correctly interpreted because their encoding no longer matches the new
execution encoding.
The existence of a setlocale function doesn't imply that calling it leads
to sensible results if the locale change also changes the encoding :)

> Specialize std::locale facets
<https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/locale/locale> and related I/O
manipulators like std::put_time()
<https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/io/manip/put_time> for char8_t. This
would allow std::print() to, when the literal encoding is UTF-8, opt-in to
use of the UTF-8/char8_t facets and I/O manipulators.

This is a different issue, one Peter and I have discussed. we should not
try to shove char into char8_t. Both char8_t and utf-8 char are valid use
cases. Also, the whole point of fmt::print is to avoid all of that :)

> When the literal encoding is UTF-8, stipulate that running the program in
a non-UTF-8 based locale is non-conforming. This would effectively require
MSVC programmers to, when building code with the /utf-8 option, to also force
selection of a UTF-8 code page via a manifest
<https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/design/globalizing/use-utf8-code-page>
and require use of Windows 10 build 1903 or later.

If you program contains literals that are not correctly interpreted by the
execution encoding, the behavior of your program cannot be correct <insert
scary U word>. So they should probably do that but it seems out of scope.
The literalS encoding and the execution encoding should be consistent (each
string literal should be correctly interpreted).

> When the literal encoding is UTF-8, specify that non-UTF-8 based locale
dependent translations be implicitly transcoded
Sorry, can you detail what you mean? I do not understand, sorry

> Drop the special case handling for the literal encoding being UTF-8 and
specify that, when bypassing a stream to write directly to the console,
that the output be implicitly transcoded from the current locale dependent
encoding (whatever it is) to the console encoding (UTF-8).

Dropping the special case seems more difficult in terms of wording.
If everything else fails, Microsoft could do the sensible thing as a matter
of QOL.

> Please feel free to comment on these, or additional, approaches before our
> meeting on Wednesday.
>
> I think it would benefit LEWG if a revision of the paper presented each of
> these possibilities, the consequences, and the rationale (and hopefully
> SG16 consensus) for the proposed direction.
>
> Tom.
>
> I do not intend to time limit discussion of P2093R5 as I believe this is
> an important matter to resolve. If we are able to complete discussion of
> P2093R5, then we'll discuss P2348R0.
>
> Tom.
>
>
> --
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> SG16_at_[hidden]
> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg16
>



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