Apologies Bryce,
I missed the note of ambiguity regards outcome in your email, and saw
that the scheduled telecon had been removed. Didn't know there was an
announcement coming, obviously.
m

On 8/11/2021 3:58 pm, Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash via SG14 wrote:
> I am surprised to see discussion of std::hive being taken off the C++23
> schedule be announced, as I am the Library Evolution chair and have not
> made any such announcement. I would encourage people to not jump to
> conclusions regarding things that have not been announced.
>
> The committee has priorities that plenary voted on. See P0592.
>
> I'm not sure why people are bringing up S&R, which has nothing to do
> with the scheduling of std::hive. At the last Library Evolution
> supertelecon, I told the room we would have to schedule additional
> meetings if they wanted to consider S&R for C++23. People voted in favor
> of that. Those are additional meetings, and they do not impact our
> regular telecon schedule.
>
> Library Evolution leadership will finalize our proposal for the rest of
> the C++23 design cycle in the next few days and then publish it.
>
> --
> Bryce Adelstein Lelbach aka wash (he/him/his)
> US Programming Language Standards (PL22) Chair
> ISO C++ Library Evolution Chair
> CppCon and C++Now Program Chair
> HPC Programming Models Architect @ NVIDIA
> --
>
> On Sun, Nov 7, 2021, 19:19 JeanHeyd Meneide via SG14
> <sg14_at_[hidden] <mailto:sg14_at_[hidden]>> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 5:14 PM René Ferdinand Rivera Morell via SG14
> <sg14_at_[hidden] <mailto:sg14_at_[hidden]>> wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 3:49 PM Matt Bentley via SG14
> <sg14_at_[hidden] <mailto:sg14_at_[hidden]>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Just an update to all,
> >> unfortunately the elders of LEWG have decided to postpone hive
> telecon
> >> till the C++26 period, for reasons of:
> >> 1. There are many other things in the pipeline which have
> already been
> >> discussed and desperately need further discussion in order to
> >> make/not-make it into C++23.
> >> 2. They believe Hive would need a couple of telecons at least in
> order
> >> to properly discuss, and there isn't the time.
> >>
> >> I think these are fair reasons, though it seems to me to be a slight
> >> mistep as the paper is pretty solid at this point and doesn't
> require a
> >> lot of adjustment I think.
> >
> >
> > Thank you for the update. But I disagree on your estimation. I
> think it is unfair. Unfair that a well thought out, and discussed,
> component of existing practice is overridden by priorities of not as
> grounded features.
>
> I agree. I'd use std::hive a million times more than I would have any
> use of S&R in the next 4 years. Not to say it's not a worthwhile
> pursuit, but making a scrambled-dash to put it in when waiting - since
> we aren't going to be building on top of S&R until C++26 or later
> anyways - is a decision that, on its face, seems unwise.
>
> It is certainly not unfair to categorize the decision as unfair (hah!)
> when other proposals which have seen much more existing practice and
> bake time get sidelined. I agree with just about anyone else that S&R
> is a great direction and foundational and many other praises that have
> been extensively laid out through dozens of hours of impassioned
> discussion, not to mention foundational for supercomputing in general!
> But, it should not dominate C++23 work in the slightest, and the
> authors of it deserve time to continue to bake and shape it so that
> it's in a great form that delivers on its promises, and we should not
> be kicking them into overdrive to deliver. Fmt was the closest we had
> to perfect and we still almost got locked into a bad ABI problem
> providing tiny tweaks.
>
> I absolutely do not want to be in a position of "well, gosh, there's
> this awesome thing that we could do with S&R, but we sort of made a
> suboptimal decision / spec mistake, and now we can't go backwards".
>
> Sincerely,
> JeanHeyd
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