Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 11:33:02 +1300
Got covid for the first time and cannot speak (or stand, much),
otherwise would've attended. std::hive proposal being electronic-polled
to progress to LWG on 15th.
On 14/12/2023 7:34 am, andrew drakeford via SG14 wrote:
> Sorry I am also not able to attend
> Unexpectedly stuck on a train
>
> All the best
> Andrew Drakeford
>
> Sent from Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* SG14 <sg14-bounces_at_[hidden]> on behalf of John McFarlane
> via SG14 <sg14_at_[hidden]>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 13, 2023 5:11:21 PM
> *To:* sg14_at_[hidden] <sg14_at_[hidden]>
> *Cc:* John McFarlane <john_at_[hidden]>
> *Subject:* Re: [SG14] SG14 Dec 12 monthly call
> Hi,
> Sorry, I won't be available for this one also.
> All the best,
> John
>
> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 at 16:36, Michael Wong via SG14
> <sg14_at_[hidden] <mailto:sg14_at_[hidden]>> wrote:
>
> Thank you for the great work, Patrice.
>
> On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 8:04 AM Patrice Roy via SG14
> <sg14_at_[hidden] <mailto:sg14_at_[hidden]>> wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
> I'll be absent today (I'm giving a C++ class to a nice group of
> game devs at that time).
>
> Update with respect to P2966 (wg21.link/p2966), which I
> presented (twice) at CppCon 2023 (if you want to see it and can
> live with my accent, it's available at
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qaYyB4dU3I
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qaYyB4dU3I>) :
>
> * I spoke to some of the early contributors to that effort just
> this week and we are planning to write a few papers for the
> Tokyo 2023 meeting
> * The intent for these first few papers is to target things that
> would be difficult or not quite possible to express portably
> with C++23, probably with respect to some of the attributes
> summarily described in P2966
> * I asked these contributors to «put their ideas on paper» and
> I'll try to turn these into actual papers.
> *Once I have them, I will bring them to SG14 to get feedback
> (and, if all goes well, a recommendation to bring them to the
> Tokyo WG21 meeting), so I hope to have some follow-up for a
> late-January / early February SG14 meeting. Hope to see you all
> there!
>
> If some of you have interest in (co) authoring papers from the
> P2966 list, please let me know soon and we can proceed along the
> same lines. It would help if, for the subject you want to
> tackle, you could provide:
>
> * An explanation of the problem we are facing and of its
> consequences on the C++ code we write
> * One or a new tables showing code before and after the
> (hopeful) adoption of the proposal (what we often call Tony
> Tables, as Tony Van Eerd has been advocating them for a long while)
> * Why the alternative solutions (if any) we could write without
> the proposal are unsatisfactory
>
> Cheers!
>
>
> Le mer. 13 déc. 2023 à 01:25, Michael Wong via SG14
> <sg14_at_[hidden] <mailto:sg14_at_[hidden]>> a écrit :
>
> Topic: SG14 Monthly This meeting is focused on Finance but
> we can continue with the Games paper that
> was started in January, depending on what other papers or
> topics are of
> interest.
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Michael Wong is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
>
> Topic: SG14 monthly
> Time: 2nd Wednesdays 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
> Every month on the Second Wed,
>
> Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:
> https://iso.zoom.us/j/93151864365?pwd=aDhOcDNWd2NWdTJuT1loeXpKbTcydz09 <https://iso.zoom.us/j/93151864365?pwd=aDhOcDNWd2NWdTJuT1loeXpKbTcydz09>
> Password: 789626
>
> Or iPhone one-tap :
> US: +12532158782,,93151864365# or
> +13017158592,,93151864365#
> Or Telephone:
> Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your
> current location):
> US: +1 253 215 8782 or +1 301 715 8592 or +1 312
> 626 6799 or +1
> 346 248 7799 or +1 408 638 0968 or +1 646 876 9923 or +1 669
> 900 6833
> or 877 853 5247 (Toll Free)
> Meeting ID: 931 5186 4365
> Password: 789626
> International numbers available:
> https://iso.zoom.us/u/abRrVivZoD
> <https://iso.zoom.us/u/abRrVivZoD>
>
> Or Skype for Business (Lync):
> https://iso.zoom.us/skype/93151864365
> <https://iso.zoom.us/skype/93151864365>
>
> Agenda:
>
> 1. Opening and introduction
>
> ISO Code of Conduct
> <
> https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink?func=ll&objId=20882226&objAction=Open&nexturl=%2Flivelink%2Flivelink%3Ffunc%3Dll%26objId%3D20158641%26objAction%3Dbrowse%26viewType%3D1 <https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink?func=ll&objId=20882226&objAction=Open&nexturl=%2Flivelink%2Flivelink%3Ffunc%3Dll%26objId%3D20158641%26objAction%3Dbrowse%26viewType%3D1>
> *>*
>
> ISO patent policy.
> https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/2000/2122/3770791/Common_Policy.htm?nodeid=6344764&vernum=-2 <https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/2000/2122/3770791/Common_Policy.htm?nodeid=6344764&vernum=-2>
>
> IEC Code of Conduct:
>
> https://www.iec.ch/basecamp/iec-code-conduct-technical-work
> <https://www.iec.ch/basecamp/iec-code-conduct-technical-work>
>
> WG21 Code of Conduct:
>
> https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-4-wg21-practices-and-procedures <https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-4-wg21-practices-and-procedures>
>
> 1.1 Roll call of participants
>
> 1.2 Adopt agenda
>
> 1.3 Approve minutes from previous meeting, and approve
> publishing
> previously approved minutes to ISOCPP.org
>
> 1.4 Action items from previous meetings
>
> 2. Main issues (125 min)
>
> 2.1 General logistics
>
> CPPCON planning
> C++23 and C++26 status
>
> Future and past meeting plans
>
> *Mar 8, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Embedded
> *Apr 12, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled
> * May 10, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled
> * June 14, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled
> * July 12, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Finance
> * Aug 9, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled
> * Sep 12, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Games
> * Oct 1: CPPCON
> * Oct 10, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Embedded
> *Nov 8, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Kona F2F Cancelled
> * Dec 12, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Finance
>
> 2.2 Paper reviews
> Discussion on Embedded:
> Review latest mailings:
> P2532 Removing exception_ptr from the receivers concept
> Based on the last meeting and the discussions here.
> P2544 C++ Exceptions are becoming more and more problematic
> We might want to chime in here.
> /Paul
> P. S. P2327 de-deprecating volatile received a "consensus"
> straw poll.
>
>
> Discussion on Low Latency/Finance topics
>
> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2022/p1839r4.pdf <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2022/p1839r4.pdf>
>
> Patrice's paper on games.
>
> P2300
> Swift
>
>
>
> Discussion about Games topics:
>
> P2388R1 - Minimum Contract Support: either Ignore or
> Check_and_abort
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2021/p2388r1.html <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2021/p2388r1.html>>
>
> Patrice's WIP on Games issues.
>
> Finance topics from July 14, 2021.
>
> https://lists.isocpp.org/sg14/2021/06/0636.php
> <https://lists.isocpp.org/sg14/2021/06/0636.php>
>
> https://lists.isocpp.org/sg14/2021/07/0642.php
> <https://lists.isocpp.org/sg14/2021/07/0642.php>
>
> 2.2.1 any other proposal for reviews?
>
> Deterministic Exception for Embedded by James Renwick
> https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/78829292/low_cost_deterministic_C_exceptions_for_embedded_systems.pdf <https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/78829292/low_cost_deterministic_C_exceptions_for_embedded_systems.pdf>
>
> Freestanding?
>
> SG14/SG19 features/issues/defects:
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JnUJBO72QVURttkKr7gn0_WjP--P0vAne8JBfzbRiy0/edit#gid=0 <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JnUJBO72QVURttkKr7gn0_WjP--P0vAne8JBfzbRiy0/edit#gid=0>
>
> 2.3 Domain-specific discussions
>
> 2.3.1 SIG chairs
>
> - Embedded Programming chairs: Ben Craig, Wouter van
> Ooijen and Odin
> Holmes, John McFarlane
>
> - Financial/Trading chairs: Staffan TjernstrÃm
> Carl Cooke, Neal Horlock,
> - Games chairs: Rene Riviera, Guy Davidson and Paul
> Hampson, Patrice Roy
>
> - Linear Algebra chairs: Bob Steagall, Mark Hoemmen, Guy
> Davidson
>
> 2.4 Other Papers and proposals
>
> 2.5 Future F2F meetings:
>
> 2.6 future C++ Standard meetings:
> https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings <https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings>
>
> -
>
> 3. Any other business
> Reflector
> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
> <https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14>
> As well as look through papers marked "SG14" in recent
> standards committee
> paper mailings:
> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/
> <http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/>
> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/
> <http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/>
>
> Code and proposal Staging area
> https://github.com/WG21-SG14/SG14
> <https://github.com/WG21-SG14/SG14>
> 4. Review
>
> 4.1 Review and approve resolutions and issues [e.g., changes
> to SG's
> working draft]
>
> 4.2 Review action items (5 min)
>
> 5. Closing process
>
> 5.1 Establish next agenda
>
> 5.2 Future meeting
>
>
> *Mar 8, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Embedded
> *Apr 12, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled
> * May 10, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled
> * June 14, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled
> * July 12, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Finance
> * Aug 9, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled
> * Sep 12, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Games
> * Oct 1: CPPCON
> * Oct 10, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Embedded
> *Nov 8, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Kona F2F Cancelled
> * Dec 12, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Finance
> _______________________________________________
> SG14 mailing list
> SG14_at_[hidden] <mailto:SG14_at_[hidden]>
> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
> <https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SG14 mailing list
> SG14_at_[hidden] <mailto:SG14_at_[hidden]>
> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
> <https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SG14 mailing list
> SG14_at_[hidden] <mailto:SG14_at_[hidden]>
> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
> <https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SG14 mailing list
> SG14_at_[hidden]
> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
otherwise would've attended. std::hive proposal being electronic-polled
to progress to LWG on 15th.
On 14/12/2023 7:34 am, andrew drakeford via SG14 wrote:
> Sorry I am also not able to attend
> Unexpectedly stuck on a train
>
> All the best
> Andrew Drakeford
>
> Sent from Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* SG14 <sg14-bounces_at_[hidden]> on behalf of John McFarlane
> via SG14 <sg14_at_[hidden]>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 13, 2023 5:11:21 PM
> *To:* sg14_at_[hidden] <sg14_at_[hidden]>
> *Cc:* John McFarlane <john_at_[hidden]>
> *Subject:* Re: [SG14] SG14 Dec 12 monthly call
> Hi,
> Sorry, I won't be available for this one also.
> All the best,
> John
>
> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 at 16:36, Michael Wong via SG14
> <sg14_at_[hidden] <mailto:sg14_at_[hidden]>> wrote:
>
> Thank you for the great work, Patrice.
>
> On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 8:04 AM Patrice Roy via SG14
> <sg14_at_[hidden] <mailto:sg14_at_[hidden]>> wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
> I'll be absent today (I'm giving a C++ class to a nice group of
> game devs at that time).
>
> Update with respect to P2966 (wg21.link/p2966), which I
> presented (twice) at CppCon 2023 (if you want to see it and can
> live with my accent, it's available at
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qaYyB4dU3I
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qaYyB4dU3I>) :
>
> * I spoke to some of the early contributors to that effort just
> this week and we are planning to write a few papers for the
> Tokyo 2023 meeting
> * The intent for these first few papers is to target things that
> would be difficult or not quite possible to express portably
> with C++23, probably with respect to some of the attributes
> summarily described in P2966
> * I asked these contributors to «put their ideas on paper» and
> I'll try to turn these into actual papers.
> *Once I have them, I will bring them to SG14 to get feedback
> (and, if all goes well, a recommendation to bring them to the
> Tokyo WG21 meeting), so I hope to have some follow-up for a
> late-January / early February SG14 meeting. Hope to see you all
> there!
>
> If some of you have interest in (co) authoring papers from the
> P2966 list, please let me know soon and we can proceed along the
> same lines. It would help if, for the subject you want to
> tackle, you could provide:
>
> * An explanation of the problem we are facing and of its
> consequences on the C++ code we write
> * One or a new tables showing code before and after the
> (hopeful) adoption of the proposal (what we often call Tony
> Tables, as Tony Van Eerd has been advocating them for a long while)
> * Why the alternative solutions (if any) we could write without
> the proposal are unsatisfactory
>
> Cheers!
>
>
> Le mer. 13 déc. 2023 à 01:25, Michael Wong via SG14
> <sg14_at_[hidden] <mailto:sg14_at_[hidden]>> a écrit :
>
> Topic: SG14 Monthly This meeting is focused on Finance but
> we can continue with the Games paper that
> was started in January, depending on what other papers or
> topics are of
> interest.
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Michael Wong is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
>
> Topic: SG14 monthly
> Time: 2nd Wednesdays 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)
> Every month on the Second Wed,
>
> Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:
> https://iso.zoom.us/j/93151864365?pwd=aDhOcDNWd2NWdTJuT1loeXpKbTcydz09 <https://iso.zoom.us/j/93151864365?pwd=aDhOcDNWd2NWdTJuT1loeXpKbTcydz09>
> Password: 789626
>
> Or iPhone one-tap :
> US: +12532158782,,93151864365# or
> +13017158592,,93151864365#
> Or Telephone:
> Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your
> current location):
> US: +1 253 215 8782 or +1 301 715 8592 or +1 312
> 626 6799 or +1
> 346 248 7799 or +1 408 638 0968 or +1 646 876 9923 or +1 669
> 900 6833
> or 877 853 5247 (Toll Free)
> Meeting ID: 931 5186 4365
> Password: 789626
> International numbers available:
> https://iso.zoom.us/u/abRrVivZoD
> <https://iso.zoom.us/u/abRrVivZoD>
>
> Or Skype for Business (Lync):
> https://iso.zoom.us/skype/93151864365
> <https://iso.zoom.us/skype/93151864365>
>
> Agenda:
>
> 1. Opening and introduction
>
> ISO Code of Conduct
> <
> https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink?func=ll&objId=20882226&objAction=Open&nexturl=%2Flivelink%2Flivelink%3Ffunc%3Dll%26objId%3D20158641%26objAction%3Dbrowse%26viewType%3D1 <https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink?func=ll&objId=20882226&objAction=Open&nexturl=%2Flivelink%2Flivelink%3Ffunc%3Dll%26objId%3D20158641%26objAction%3Dbrowse%26viewType%3D1>
> *>*
>
> ISO patent policy.
> https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/2000/2122/3770791/Common_Policy.htm?nodeid=6344764&vernum=-2 <https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/2000/2122/3770791/Common_Policy.htm?nodeid=6344764&vernum=-2>
>
> IEC Code of Conduct:
>
> https://www.iec.ch/basecamp/iec-code-conduct-technical-work
> <https://www.iec.ch/basecamp/iec-code-conduct-technical-work>
>
> WG21 Code of Conduct:
>
> https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-4-wg21-practices-and-procedures <https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-4-wg21-practices-and-procedures>
>
> 1.1 Roll call of participants
>
> 1.2 Adopt agenda
>
> 1.3 Approve minutes from previous meeting, and approve
> publishing
> previously approved minutes to ISOCPP.org
>
> 1.4 Action items from previous meetings
>
> 2. Main issues (125 min)
>
> 2.1 General logistics
>
> CPPCON planning
> C++23 and C++26 status
>
> Future and past meeting plans
>
> *Mar 8, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Embedded
> *Apr 12, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled
> * May 10, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled
> * June 14, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled
> * July 12, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Finance
> * Aug 9, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled
> * Sep 12, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Games
> * Oct 1: CPPCON
> * Oct 10, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Embedded
> *Nov 8, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Kona F2F Cancelled
> * Dec 12, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Finance
>
> 2.2 Paper reviews
> Discussion on Embedded:
> Review latest mailings:
> P2532 Removing exception_ptr from the receivers concept
> Based on the last meeting and the discussions here.
> P2544 C++ Exceptions are becoming more and more problematic
> We might want to chime in here.
> /Paul
> P. S. P2327 de-deprecating volatile received a "consensus"
> straw poll.
>
>
> Discussion on Low Latency/Finance topics
>
> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2022/p1839r4.pdf <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2022/p1839r4.pdf>
>
> Patrice's paper on games.
>
> P2300
> Swift
>
>
>
> Discussion about Games topics:
>
> P2388R1 - Minimum Contract Support: either Ignore or
> Check_and_abort
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2021/p2388r1.html <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2021/p2388r1.html>>
>
> Patrice's WIP on Games issues.
>
> Finance topics from July 14, 2021.
>
> https://lists.isocpp.org/sg14/2021/06/0636.php
> <https://lists.isocpp.org/sg14/2021/06/0636.php>
>
> https://lists.isocpp.org/sg14/2021/07/0642.php
> <https://lists.isocpp.org/sg14/2021/07/0642.php>
>
> 2.2.1 any other proposal for reviews?
>
> Deterministic Exception for Embedded by James Renwick
> https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/78829292/low_cost_deterministic_C_exceptions_for_embedded_systems.pdf <https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/78829292/low_cost_deterministic_C_exceptions_for_embedded_systems.pdf>
>
> Freestanding?
>
> SG14/SG19 features/issues/defects:
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JnUJBO72QVURttkKr7gn0_WjP--P0vAne8JBfzbRiy0/edit#gid=0 <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JnUJBO72QVURttkKr7gn0_WjP--P0vAne8JBfzbRiy0/edit#gid=0>
>
> 2.3 Domain-specific discussions
>
> 2.3.1 SIG chairs
>
> - Embedded Programming chairs: Ben Craig, Wouter van
> Ooijen and Odin
> Holmes, John McFarlane
>
> - Financial/Trading chairs: Staffan TjernstrÃm
> Carl Cooke, Neal Horlock,
> - Games chairs: Rene Riviera, Guy Davidson and Paul
> Hampson, Patrice Roy
>
> - Linear Algebra chairs: Bob Steagall, Mark Hoemmen, Guy
> Davidson
>
> 2.4 Other Papers and proposals
>
> 2.5 Future F2F meetings:
>
> 2.6 future C++ Standard meetings:
> https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings <https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings>
>
> -
>
> 3. Any other business
> Reflector
> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
> <https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14>
> As well as look through papers marked "SG14" in recent
> standards committee
> paper mailings:
> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/
> <http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/>
> http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/
> <http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/>
>
> Code and proposal Staging area
> https://github.com/WG21-SG14/SG14
> <https://github.com/WG21-SG14/SG14>
> 4. Review
>
> 4.1 Review and approve resolutions and issues [e.g., changes
> to SG's
> working draft]
>
> 4.2 Review action items (5 min)
>
> 5. Closing process
>
> 5.1 Establish next agenda
>
> 5.2 Future meeting
>
>
> *Mar 8, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Embedded
> *Apr 12, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled
> * May 10, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled
> * June 14, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled
> * July 12, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Finance
> * Aug 9, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled
> * Sep 12, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Games
> * Oct 1: CPPCON
> * Oct 10, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Embedded
> *Nov 8, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Kona F2F Cancelled
> * Dec 12, 2023 02:00 PM ET: Finance
> _______________________________________________
> SG14 mailing list
> SG14_at_[hidden] <mailto:SG14_at_[hidden]>
> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
> <https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SG14 mailing list
> SG14_at_[hidden] <mailto:SG14_at_[hidden]>
> https://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg14
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Received on 2023-12-13 22:33:13