Topic: SG14 monthlyTime: 2nd Wednesdays 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) Every month on the Second Wed,Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:https://iso.zoom.us/j/93151864365?pwd=aDhOcDNWd2NWdTJuT1loeXpKbTcydz09 Password: 789626Thank you.Michael Wong is invitingyou to a scheduled Zoom meeting.Topic: SG19 monthlyTime: 02:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) Every month on the Second Thu,Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:https://iso.zoom.us/j/93084591725?pwd=K3QxZjJlcnljaE13ZWU5cTlLNkx0Zz09 Password: 035530Or iPhone one-tap : US: +13017158592,,93084591725# or +13126266799,,93084591725#Or Telephone: Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current location): US: +1 301 715 8592 or +1 312 626 6799 or +1 346 248 7799 or +1408 638 0968 or +1 646 876 9923 or +1 669 900 6833 or +1 253 215 8782 or 877 853 5247 (Toll Free) Meeting ID: 930 8459 1725 Password: 035530 International numbers available: https://iso.zoom.us/u/agewu4X97Or Skype for Business (Lync): https://iso.zoom.us/skype/93084591725Agenda:1. Opening and introductionsThe ISO Code of conduct:https://www.iso.org/files/live/sites/isoorg/files/store/en/PUB100397.pdfIEC Code of Conduct:https://www.iec.ch/basecamp/iec-code-conduct-technical-workISO patent policy.https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/2000/2122/3770791/Common_Policy.htm?nodeid=6344764&vernum=-2The WG21 Practices and Procedures and Code of Conduct:https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-4-wg21-practices-and-procedures1.1 Roll call of participants1.2 Adopt agenda1.3 Approve minutes from previous meeting, and approve publishing previously approved minutes to ISOCPP.org1.4 Action items from previous meetings2. Main issues (125 min)2.1 General logisticsMeeting plan, focus on one paper per meeting but does not preclude other paper updates.2024 planningC++23 and C++26 status* Jan 11, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph* Feb 8, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph
* Mar 14, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled due to Tokyo 3-18-23
* Apr 11, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Stats
* May 9, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph
* June 13, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Embedded; St.louis 6-24-29
* July 11, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Stats
* Aug 15, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph
* Sep 12, 2024 02:00 PM ET: CPPCON Sept 15-20 so canceled
* Oct 10, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Stats
* Nov 14, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled Wroclaw F2F
* Dec 12, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph
ISO meeting statusfuture C++ Std meetings2.2 Paper reviewsReview BSI Graph feedback:
As Oliver (Rosten) said "The basic premise is important, and it would be fantastic to have support for graphs in the standard."
The main items identified were:
Oliver:
- This paper is long and incomplete, it has lots of details which I think to be irrelevant, however things that are definitely relevant are missing from the paper - for example definition of graph - since people have different ideas. We need to add a mathematical perspective to the paper.
- The structure of the paper completely changed in the new revision, so now it’s hard to understand what and why they have done
- Another missing part is discussion of graph invariants
Tom (Deakin): There’s a big missing part in “Prior art” part, GraphBLAS (https://graphblas.org) eminently.
Some other things to add:
1. The electrical circuit example needs more explanation, and I think this will highlight some deep issues around representing things which are seemingly trivially graphs, as graphs in practice. In what sense is a bog-standard resistor directed? I assume the reason that the graph is directed is because current has a sign and in an undirected graph it becomes ambiguous which way the current is flowing (also you may want components like diodes). But the directed representation also has issues: "can current flow from 'Vdd' to 'n0'?" should be immediately answerable from the properties of Vdd and its edges. There are other ways to represent an electrical circuit. One is as a directed graph but with incident edges recorded - but iiuc, this is excluded from the latest version of the paper. Alternatively, one could have a mathematical object, the name of which I actually don't know: it looks like an undirected graph, but where each partial edge has additional, unique, end-point data, as well as the common weight. Things like this are the reason why I think we need a broader group to look at this proposal (i.e. beyond SG19) and if we possibly can we should involve someone from the mathematics community. Otherwise there's a real danger we end up missing important insights.
2. My comment about the structure of the paper changing was a reference to previous comparisons with boost::graph. I'm sure these were in an earlier version, or am I misremembering? Either way, it would be very helpful to have a proper discussion of e.g. the move away from visitors.
3. Re. the definition of a graph, there needs to be a proper discussion about whether the paper's definition of graph is what some authors call a multigraph and whether it does/does not include loops. These things are mentioned, in passing, when introducing algorithms, but terminology needs to be properly established.
4. I think we're trying to do too much in one go in this paper. I think a great first step would be to build on mdspan and try to standardize (or at least understand) what might reasonably be called an unstructured span. This could be represented as a vector of vectors or as a vector with some auxiliary storage indicating where the partitions fall. The point is that an unstructured span, with the right invariants, is an adjacency list. If we can understand unstructured span and its desirable api, I think this will be incredibly valuable guidance for what a standardized graph container might look like.
5. IIUC, this paper excludes pure connectivity graphs. These are incredibly helpful and, if I've understood correctly that they are not supported, would be a major omission. Another good reason, imo, to start with unstructured span!
6. I'm not convinced by the load api. We don't have a load api for vector etc. Moreover, would it not be preferable to have appropriate constructors?
2.2.1: ML topics2.2.1.1 Graph Proposal Phil Ratsloff et alLatest paper:Here’s a link to the paper (different than the previous paper reviewed).There are some additional updates I’m planning on making before the meeting.https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OpH-xxRri7tJTtJJIZTYmSHkkrZJkdBwm9zJ7LqolfQ/edit?usp=sharingP1709R3:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kLHhbSTX7j0tPeTYECQFSNx3R35Mu3xO5_dyYdRy4dM/edit?usp=sharinghttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1QkfDzGyfNQKs86y053M0YHOLP6frzhTJqzg1Ug_vkkE/edit?usp=sharing<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2119r0.html><https://docs.google.com/document/d/175wIm8o4BNGti0WLq8U6uZORegKVjmnpfc-_E8PoGS0/edit?ts=5fff27cd#heading=h.9ogkehmdmtel*>*Array copy semantics:array copy-semantics paper P1997 "Relaxing Restrictions on Arrays",https://wg21.link/p1997Stats feedback:P2376R0<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2021/p2376r0.pdf>Commentson Simple Statistical Functions (p1708r4): Contracts, Exceptions andSpecial cases Johan Lundberg2.2.1.2 Reinforcement Learning Larry Lewis Jorge SilvaReinforcement Learning proposal:2.2.1.3 Differential Calculus:https://docs.google.com/document/d/175wIm8o4BNGti0WLq8U6uZORegKVjmnpfc-_E8PoGS0/edit?ts=5fff27cd#heading=h.9ogkehmdmtel2.2.1.4: Stats paperP2681R0<https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2022/p2681r0.pdf> MoreStats Functions Richard Dosselmann, Michael WongCurrent githubhttps://github.com/cplusplus/papers/issues/475https://github.com/cplusplus/papers/issues/979Stats review Richard Dosselman et alhttp://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2021/p1708r4.pdfFeedback from Johan Lundberg and Oleksandr Korvalhttps://isocpp.org/files/papers/D2376R0.pdfP1708R3: Math proposal for Machine Learning: 3rd reviewPXXXX: combinatorics: 1st Review*> std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p1708r2<http://std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p1708r2>**> above is the stats paper that was reviewed in Prague**> http://wiki.edg.com/bin/view/Wg21prague/P1708R2SG19<http://wiki.edg.com/bin/view/Wg21prague/P1708R2SG19>**>**> Review Jolanta Polish feedback.**> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2119r0.html<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2119r0.html>*2.2.1.4: Matrix paper2.2.3 any other proposal for reviews?2.3 Other Papers and proposalsP1416R1: SG19 - Linear Algebra for Data Science and Machine Learninghttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1IKUNiUhBgRURW-UkspK7fAAyIhfXuMxjk7xKikK4Yp8/edit#heading=h.tj9hitg7dbtrP1415: Machine Learning Layered listhttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1elNFdIXWoetbxjO1OKol_Wj8fyi4Z4hogfj5tLVSj64/edit#heading=h.tj9hitg7dbtr2.2.2 SG14 Linear Algebra progress:Different layers of proposalhttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1poXfr7mUPovJC9ZQ5SDVM_1Nb6oYAXlK_d0ljdUAtSQ/edit2.5 Future F2F meetings:2.6 future C++ Standard meetings:https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetingsNone3. Any other businessNew reflectorhttp://lists.isocpp.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/sg19Old Reflectorhttps://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/forum/#!newtopic/sg19<https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/forum/?fromgroups=#!forum/sg14>Code and proposal Staging area4. Review4.1 Review and approve resolutions and issues [e.g., changes to SG'sworking draft]4.2 Review action items (5 min)5. Closing process5.1 Establish next agenda5.2 Future meeting* Jan 11, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph* Feb 8, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph
* Mar 14, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled due to Tokyo 3-18-23
* Apr 11, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Stats
* May 9, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph
* June 13, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Embedded; St.louis 6-24-29
* July 11, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Stats
* Aug 15, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph
* Sep 12, 2024 02:00 PM ET: CPPCON Sept 15-20 so cancelled
* Oct 10, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Stats
* Nov 14, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Cancelled Wroclaw F2F
* Dec 12, 2024 02:00 PM ET: Graph