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Subject: Re: Intentionally omitted feature test macro in freestanding operator new (P2013)
From: JF Bastien (cxx_at_[hidden])
Date: 2020-09-09 10:55:39


I wouldn't worry about implementation difficulties. The compiler knows
about the target and the runtime, it might need to know more, but that's
fine. It knows when it's targeting freestanding too, so it can
conservatively say "this is a freestanding platform that I'm not sure
about, let's assume there's no allocation". The library then pick up
whatever the compiler says. This will be correct for implementations that
care about this.

What's really important here is: what does a user do with this macro? Your
argument is "shoot themselves in the foot", and I'm not sure that's right.
If there's no allocation, what does portable code do? Not call new, and
instead use the stack, or some side scratch space? That seems reasonable,
and a good reason to have a feature test macro.

What other considerations are missing?

On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 6:33 AM Ben Craig via SG10 <sg10_at_[hidden]>
wrote:

> The following is a conversation on this topic that Louis and I had on
> Slack, reproduced with his permission.
>
>
>
>
>
> ldionne
>
> The question you're asking is whether we should have a feature test macro
> that tells whether the replaceable operator new/operator delete have a
> default (weak) definition in the library, correct?
>
> 9:03
>
> And you're saying "There should not be such a feature-test macro, because
> implementing it requires the headers to have a lot of information related
> to the runtime they will be used for". Is that correct?
>
> 9:04
>
> If so, one additional bit of information is that on Apple platforms, we do
> have sufficient information to know whether a default definition of these
> replaceable allocation functions is provided, because we build libc++ and
> libc++abi all at the same time.
>
>
>
> ben.craig 10:42 AM
>
> You've got the right idea, yes. And I agree, that for Apple platforms,
> you have sufficient information.
>
> 10:43
>
> I'm thinking that for homegrown OS's, it will be a harder thing to figure
> out. Whoever builds the toolchain would need to supply that information,
> which works, but it's a little hostile. Supporting your own OS is a
> hostile thing though.
>
>
>
> ldionne 10:43 AM
>
> I'm not sure I follow.
>
> 10:44
>
> Why would whoever builds the toolchain have to supply that information?
>
> 10:44
>
> That assumes libc++ is part of the toolchain, right?
>
>
>
> ben.craig 10:44 AM
>
> the default implementation of libc++abi is going to try to get memory from
> malloc, and malloc may not be there
>
> 10:45
>
> and there isn't a way for the compiler front end to ask "is malloc there",
> and there isn't a good way for <version> to ask "is malloc there"
>
> 10:45
>
> but the person that builds the toolchain should know if malloc is there,
> and therefore, whether operator new is there
>
>
>
> ldionne 10:46 AM
>
> So, on our platform, we ship libc++ as part of the system.
>
> 10:46
>
> Not the toolchain
>
>
>
> ben.craig 10:47 AM
>
> fair. Your toolchain knows what OS it is targeting though
>
>
>
> ldionne 10:48 AM
>
> Yes, but that's not the point I'm trying to make. Even regardless of any
> toolchain, libc++ knows what it provides when it's built for <name some
> OS>. For example, when I build libc++ for e.g. macos 10.15, I build libc++,
> libc++abi and the libc++ headers all at once. The headers I provide can, in
> theory, have different contents based on that.
>
> 10:49
>
> So for example if I were to build libc++ for some internal freestanding
> implementation, I would be able to avoid defining the feature-test-macro
> for operator new in that build
>
> 10:49
>
> Does that make sense?
>
>
>
> ben.craig 10:49 AM
>
> let me refine what I said earlier.
>
> Whoever builds the ~toolchain~ _standard library and runtime_ would need
> to supply that information, which works, but it's a little hostile.
> Supporting your own OS is a hostile thing though.
>
>
>
> ldionne 10:50 AM
>
> Right. I don't see how it's really that hostile?
>
>
>
> ben.craig 10:50 AM
>
> It's not that bad. It's nicer when I don't have to set a bunch of flags
> and the headers can just figure it out on their own
>
> 10:51
>
> but things like MUSL already require some manual configuration, so it's
> still workable
>
> 10:51
>
> I can't just take some binaries that someone else built and use those. I
> have to build them myself.
>
>
>
> ldionne 10:52 AM
>
> Here's how I'd implement that hypothetically in libc++ (if we supported
> freestanding better than not at all):
>
> 1. Add a CMake option whether to provide the default definition for
> operator new
>
> 2. Based on that CMake option, include (or don't) the definitions in
> libc++.a/libc++abi.a
>
> 3. Based on that CMake option, define (or don't) the feature test macro
>
> The headers installed in include/c++/v1 would literally be different based
> on that CMake option. Then, when I build libc++ for my special internal
> freestanding, I'd define the CMake option and be done with it.
>
> 10:53
>
> I agree this means the headers on their own can't figure it out.
>
> 10:53
>
> IOW we can't have one set of headers that is used on both (e.g.) macosx
> and the freestanding implementation. They need to be *differently
> configured* headers
>
>
>
> ben.craig 10:54 AM
>
> I think this was definitely the weaker point against having a feature test
> macro, and it's weak enough at this point that I'm tempted to remove it.
> Do you have opinions on the second point (lack of a good use case)?
>
>
>
> ldionne 10:55 AM
>
> No, I don't have a use case off the top of my head. I don't have an
> opinion either.
>
> 10:55
>
> I just wanted to let you know that having a feature-test macro wasn't a
> problem as far as Apple platforms were concerned, because of the way we
> ship libc++/libc++abi. This might not hold true for other vendors.
>
> 10:56
>
> My point is: I don't care which way you go, but if you decide to add a
> macro, we'll be able to implement it.
>
> 10:56
>
> Maybe not trivially, but it's doable.
>
> 10:57
>
> Also, feel free to report this conversation to the mailing list. I signed
> up and should be able to reply inline next time.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Ben Craig
> *Sent:* Friday, August 28, 2020 1:00 PM
> *To:* Jonathan Wakely <cxx_at_[hidden]>; sg10_at_[hidden]
> *Subject:* RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [SG10] Intentionally omitted feature test
> macro in freestanding operator new (P2013)
>
>
>
> > I don't really understand this, as I'm not sure what "the runtime"
> means. The macro would be provided by the <new> header, wouldn't it?
>
>
>
> libsupc++ and libc++abi are some specific runtime pieces I had in mind
> with that statement.
>
>
>
> > If the <new> header declares operator new, it would define the macro. If
> not, not.
>
>
>
> My paper proposes that the declarations for operator new will always be
> present. The optional aspect is whether the definitions will be present.
>
>
>
> <new> and <version> can’t really ask libsupc++ and libc++abi if they
> contain an operator new definition. It means that the information needs to
> be populated when the toolchain is built, and that the toolchain needs to
> know enough about the target environment to know whether operator new will
> be present or not.
>
>
>
> It’s not a super strong argument, as toolchains will often know exactly
> what they are targeting, and can make a conservative choice in other
> circumstances. The lack of a good use case is my stronger argument. It’s
> still not clear to me whether we would make this a library or a language
> feature test macro though.
>
>
>
> *From:* Jonathan Wakely <cxx_at_[hidden]>
> *Sent:* Friday, August 28, 2020 12:40 PM
> *To:* sg10_at_[hidden]
> *Cc:* Ben Craig <ben.craig_at_[hidden]>
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [SG10] Intentionally omitted feature test macro
> in freestanding operator new (P2013)
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 20 Aug 2020, 15:15 Ben Craig via SG10, <sg10_at_[hidden]>
> wrote:
>
> Yesterday, EWG’s telecon requested that I run the feature test macro
> section of my design by SG10 to see if there were any objections.
>
>
>
>
> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2013r1.html#no_macro
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p2013r1.html*no_macro__;Iw!!FbZ0ZwI3Qg!5M_20wW5k73BOnQQ4rUjjp-GzvRnAE-bu2kIJglmJRs8wiDkODj3eGhF0Gx4$>
>
>
>
> Here’s that text reproduced in the email:
>
> A feature test macro would be awkward to implement, and would encourage
> code that is more prone to ODR issues than other feature test macros.
>
> In most toolchains, feature test macros can be exposed directly by the
> compiler (usually for core language features) and by the library (for
> library features). The presence or absence of ::operator new is dictated
> by the runtime though. In some implementations, neither the compiler nor
> the library headers necessarily know detailed information about the
> runtime. This hurdle is not intractable, but it is a hurdle nonetheless.
>
> I don't really understand this, as I'm not sure what "the runtime" means.
> The macro would be provided by the <new> header, wouldn't it?
>
>
>
> If the <new> header declares operator new, it would define the macro. If
> not, not.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The most likely usage of such a feature test macro is to conditionally
> define a custom ::operator new iff the implementation did not provide one
> by default. This is dangerous territory, as it encourages libraries to
> provide the one-and-only ::operator new definition. If two such libraries
> do this, then there is an ODR issue.
>
>
>
> OK, I am convinced by that argument. Not having a valid use case is good
> justification.
>
>
>
>
>
> Does SG10 have any concerns with this approach?
>
>
>
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